Episode 602 - Sensei Matt King
Sensei Matt King is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at the Shindokan Budo New England.
You don’t have to be the most skilled person at something to have a positive impact when you’re training with other people. Sometimes it’s just who you are and what you bring to the floor because— You are the whole YOU that you are….
Sensei Matt King - Episode 602
If you are a kid who wants to be a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle, chances are, you would want to be a martial artist than a turtle. That’s exactly what Sensei Matt King did and with his parents’ support and some luck, he got into martial arts just fine. Long after countless plastic swords as an attempt to be Leonardo and a couple of transition points, Sensei Matt King now teaches Martial Arts at the Shindokan Budo New England. In this episode, Sensei Matt King recounts his journey to the Martial Arts and a lot more!
Show Notes
In this episode, we mentioned a past guest on the show, Sensei Erik Johnstone.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What is happening everybody, welcome. You're tuned in to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio Episode 602 with my guest today Sensei Matt King. I am Jeremy Lesniak, I'm your host for the show, the founder at whistlekick, and there's a good chance that we have something in common because you don't host the show. No on whistlekick. But you're probably into martial arts like I am, which is why we do all the things that we do. And it's probably why you're listening to what we're doing here today. We love martial arts, traditional martial arts specifically. And if you want to see everything that we're doing, go to whistlekick com or online home. It's where we sell stuff, in link to the stuff that we do. It's our digital hub, our online home. And if you see something in the store that floats your boat, use the code PODCAST15, saves you 15% off reminds us that, hey, listeners buy stuff. And it helps us justify to the bean counters, the accountants, and all those folks that. Yeah, what we're doing here with this show, actually has a purpose. So, help us to that end, if you wouldn't mind, Martial Arts Radio, this show gets its own website whistlekickmartialartsradio.com because nobody's ever accused me of naming things creatively, the show comes out twice a week. And the entire purpose behind everything that we do well, it's to connect, it is to educate and to entertain traditional martial artists throughout the world. If you want to support that work, there are lots of ways you can do it, you can make a purchase, or you could share an episode. We really appreciate when you do that. You could follow us on social media, at whistlekick everywhere where you might imagine, you could tell a friend about us, in fact, within martial arts, schools, people telling other people about the show and what we do, that's the best. And number one way that we grow, you could pick up one of our books on Amazon, we're adding titles all the time, did you know that you can leave a review on Google or Facebook or Apple podcasts or wherever anywhere that makes sense. Or you can support us on Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick place to go. You can support us monthly with as little as $2 a month. I feel like I should have dramatic music and be begging you but we're not begging you. Why? Because we're actually going to give you more than $2 back. In fact, every support here at patreon, you don't just give us money, you give us something and we give you a bunch of stuff back in $2. We give you upcoming guests behind the scenes information. $5 you get a bonus audio episode. $10 you get bonus video. And it goes up then from there and includes book drafts and private training and all kinds of crazy stuff. So go to patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick, and jump on and help us out. Help us keep this ship rolling. I had a great time talking with Sensei Matt King here. And as we get through the episode, and you're going to hear this, there was a point where one of my theories was challenged. And I asked him about it. And one of the things that we end up talking about became an axe. He has become an exception to one of my, I don't want to call it a rule. But one of my theories and I found that absolutely fascinating. And so, we talked about that a little bit. And we talked about a bunch of other stuff with the arts that he's done and how they connect and just is a good episode. It's a great episode. You're going to love it. Check it out. Enjoy. And I'll see you in the outro. Hey, Sensei Matt, welcome to the show. How are you?
Matt King:
I'm doing very well. Happy Tuesday. Thanks for having me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Happy Tuesday. Yeah, it's a Tuesday, we almost exclusively record on Tuesdays. Oh, wow. You know, we crammed together, we used to do it. It used to when I started the show it was whenever somebody could do it.
Matt King:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And so, my life revolved around this show. And as that stopped working, because, you know, before the show and after the show, you know, you can't just switch gears and start doing something else. And recently, we went to every other Tuesday and we're trying to cram three to four episodes in per day. Wow. When we record, so you are interviewee number three for the day. And Andrew, our mutual acquaintance friend, Andrew Adams, we recorded an episode in between so this is the fourth episode I'm recording today.
Matt King:
Wow, you are warmed up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am warmed up. Hopefully not tired. Hopefully I can keep up with you. We'll see how it goes. I feel pretty good. Alright, well, it's a martial art show. And we talk about martial arts, specifically your martial arts journey. Now, quite often, I will ask a very simple, straightforward, obvious question. How did you get started, but I want to I want to tweak that a little bit? Just To keep you on your toes, keep the audience on their toes. If you were to make a comic book, or a movie or TV show some kind of artistic representation of your martial arts journey, what would be the movie poster or the TV poster, the cover art that would entice people into learning more about your martial arts journey?
Matt King:
Wow.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Its issue wanted the first episode or the beginning of the movie, right? Or the first movie in the series? So, it's still got to cover the beginning. But how would we represent the beginning? In a way that makes people say, I want to know more in the beginning?
Matt King:
That's a really good question. Well, I feel like I can answer. You know, the original, like you said, and kind of the more general question in that my parents got me into martial arts when I was a kid because I wanted to grow up and be a teenager ninja turtle. Okay, and I told them that nice. So, they were like, well, you know, if a kid has some direction, you should really support it. Oh, man, if it had to be a movie poster, like it would have to be like, a kid reading Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle comic books and watching the cartoon and thinking about how like, you know, that was just the best ever. And, you know, wanting was trying to train the way they were training and do the things they were doing and...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm imagining younger you sitting down eating a pizza in the living room. You've got, I don't know how old you are. But I'm 42 and so back when I was a kid, a lot of people had those very enormous consoles sat on the floor TVs. I'm imagining you sitting on the floor. Okay, so you know we're talking about sitting in front of those one of those watching Ninja Turtles on Saturday morning. And you've got toy baby nerf martial art, you know, like a nerf sword sitting next to you. You're holding it. There's cheese dripping down your arm. And there’s imagination bubbles of you as like the fifth turtle.
Matt King:
Oh, God. Yeah. Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That does that seem representative that work?
Matt King:
And like not far off of the mark at all of what happened?
Jeremy Lesniak:
how do you think I can imagine that? I kind of lived it as well. I get it.
Matt King:
We're here. Brother. I found you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was. I can't tell you how many times how many plastic swords my mother or father bought me. Because before I could go to the grocery store, when I was a kid, I had to put them in the back of my shirt. Because I wanted to be Leonardo. I wasn't the only one. It's good to know. And it's just nice to know that like you grow up and everyone's like, nah, dude, that's normal. Like I get that.
Matt King:
I think we all did the number of ridiculous things we did as kids that as you get a little bit older, you're like, oh, I'm the only one because we didn't... You don't talk about those things. And if you did talk about that in high school, everybody would lie and say I never did that. And on the inside, they'd be like, oh, man, I actually really did that. And I thought that was a lot of fun. But now as adults, we get to reminisce and talk about those things and, and lament giving up that sort of imagination.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, it's so very true when you're like in your 20s, or, like, early 20s. Everyone's like, no, I didn't do anything like that. That's not cool. By the time you get to your 30s and 40s. You're like, man, I used to be so awesome.
Matt King:
I peeked when I was eight. And what a peak it was.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely. Alright, so the genesis for your martial arts training was Ninja Turtles wanting to be a ninja turtle. And your parents supported that. But how did that show up? You went to some manner of class, I assume?
Matt King:
Yeah, actually, I'm born and raised in Rhode Island. In Rhode Island, you know, there is not the seven degrees of separation or seven Degrees of Kevin Bacon or anything, you know, you’re one or two degrees at best. Everybody knows, everybody knows everybody. Even if you grew up in the north state versus the south of the state, you’re two or three phone calls away from figuring out, you know, whose cousins went to school with. Who else? Right. And it just so happened that my mother had known for quite some time, gentlemen who taught martial arts, he had his own dojo, and I used to go with her to the hair salon. He was a hairstylist, and he knew that I liked karate that I wanted to start getting into it. So, I always thought he was just the coolest guy in the world because he could like throw a sidekick bite at my head. Like, that was good. That was a magic trick.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, totally.
Matt King:
So, you know, didn't really have to like beg borrow steal or anything I went to one class and I remember sitting in the like the doorway entry to from like the waiting room to the actual floor. And I mean, I must have had a smile that went from year to year. I still remember watching my first karate classes a kid and begin like this is it. I know exactly what I want to do. And start in class the next week. Of course, my two sisters had to start with me and that was less cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Older or younger?
Matt King:
Both older, two years older and four years older.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Kind of stealing your thunder, it felt like...
Matt King:
Yeah, I mean, it was mostly like it got to the point where my oldest sister is shorter than, I mean, I think I was taller than her when I was 10. And she was 14. So, you know, when we had to spar, or we had to wrestle, I could totally beat her. But my other sister is a little bit taller, a little bit more... And she used to just wipe the floor with me, oh my god, it wasn't even fair. But that's where I started training there for a number of years. When I was a kid, I think I was there from like, first grade to third grade or something maybe a little bit longer. But took a break from that interest kind of change, family stuff changed. And then I started training again. I just was getting into high school leaving middle school and it kind of worked out again that my father worked with someone who taught martial arts and trains two nights a week for you know, two to three hours each class. We didn't have to pay. He was taught at National Guard Armory, we got to use like the gymnasium space training on concrete floors with adults. And I thought it was that I had the same elation and smile looking forward to class every week, you know, would show up early and try and set up and I would run through everything and stretch out and then class would start and it was no joke. It was hard training and learning to break fall on concrete. And it was fantastic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good stuff.
Matt King:
Yeah, it was a lot of fun. You know, it's I trained thing. Training things that are very different. Now when I got to college, I stopped training there, I started training somewhere else. That was a little closer, a little bit different. But I imagine in the times that I've talked especially to other people about you know, oh my god, yeah, I remember what I used to train here when I was a kid or I used to train here a long time ago. I may never want to do those type of styles or, or arts again, but Oh God, I would never trade it for anything in the world. You know, I have the fondest memories looking back on them. And, you know, it's something that I appreciate. You know, I'm 15/16 years old, and I've got to put on the boots. I got to get up there and you know, train with adults, I got to keep up with them. I've got to, you know, learn differently that I think I might have if I was in a teenager's class.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, there's something about training with those where the bar is set higher, you know, whether that's an age thing, or a rank thing or a cultural thing. You know, that there's that saying that goldfish is going to grow to the size of the bowl, it's put in, right, and I think quite often as martial artists, when we teach kids, especially in a mixed class, where you've got, ages five to 12, and white belts to whatever, you know, we oftentimes artificially restrict those older, higher rank kids. Yeah, their kids. And I mean, we do it across everything. I think in society, we expect people to, you know, to be very limited. And here's an example of you. I would imagine if we were to compare your skills at that age at that time, that amount of investment to someone who spent more time in a friendlier, lighter, safer environment, you would mop the floor with...
Matt King:
I would hope but I mean there’s...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Statistically, I'm not saying that, you know, we would have moved you from there up to, you know, pro fighter status.
Matt King:
Yeah, not yet. Later.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That was six months out.
Matt King:
Yeah. It's also like, for me, it was something that was funny that I've always been a bigger guy. I've always been, you know, the biggest person in any of my classes growing up in school, and being able to train with, you know, not having to train with people who I'm going to outweighed by 60 pounds. On the best day was great, because I had adults that like I had to, I had to work for I had to move. I had to try to do it. And I had to kind of rise to the occasion, like you were saying. And it changed my outlook on it. Because for me, it was always something I had to take very seriously, because I didn't want to waste anybody's time. I never wanted anyone to think that I wasn't really trying to put my effort, my best effort into it. And that pairs with the fact that I was never a physically gifted athlete. I would stay at home and a good night of practice for me was like, I'm going to throw 50 sidekicks without putting my foot down. And I failed for hours before I could do it. I failed for days and days and days until I learned how to balance and I had to go, you know, long form. How to learn to do that, because I naturally wasn't very good at it. Hmm.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get that. I get that. Now, you mentioned in hinted a bit before that there was some kind of transitional point. I think I heard in college, where you started training very differently.
Matt King:
Yeah. And it was actually where I was training in high school. There was a gentleman and friend who he would also be... I think he's seven or eight years older than me, somewhere in that vicinity. So, I was a teenager, he was in his early 20s. But he was someone who had been, you know, training. This was Kempo, karate, a very popular thing you find a lot of in Rhode Island in New England, typically kind of like an offshoot, or with heavy influence of shore in New Colorado. But he was someone who always used to show up early. And he had been training long enough that he was doing other arts. And he was like, oh, come over here. Let me throw you like, come over here and throw punches. I want to try these different techniques. So, I just got used as the biggest punching bag in the room. I had no idea what we were doing, because I had never seen this stuff before. But broadened my horizons, broaden my scope, and had been one day said that we always took a break in the summer because the armory didn't have air conditioning. So instead of making everybody swelter through some of the hottest months, or if people a lot of the people there were National Guard. So, if they were going to have to do any of their duties, or report just kind of broke. And it just so happened that there was going to be a Japanese sword group, starting up in an area where this friend at the time I was training with was saying, like, hey, I know you're doing stuff already. But there's going to be a little bit of a break coming up for you. If you can either get if you cannot drive yourself there. That's great. But you know, if you can get dropped off, I can drop you back off after class. And this is when I started training with Eric Johnstone, who you had on the show a couple of weeks ago.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, he was on not long ago.
Matt King:
I'm 17 years old, and I get to start doing start studying Japanese swords. And I thought, I'm like, this is it. I'm finally a ninja turtle.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You are alien artists.
Matt King:
This is my final form. And I mean, I still remember the first classes that you know, we were going through and we were at that time, it was training at a shorter new karate and kabuto school, not very far away. So, I got to meet that teacher who was different than Johnstone Sensei, the sword instructor teaching and having space at that profit dojo and I started doing the showing you there and stopped doing the Kempo that I had been doing throughout high school. It just had it was, you know, the New England Kempo was the only martial art that I had ever really had experience with and when I got to see the different types of martial arts that were out there and where different things were pulled from and how different things were taught. It just clicked that I want to. I love and I appreciate what I've done. But it's time for me to start doing other things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Make sense? Yeah. The moment you mentioned Rhode Island, I was playing the odds in my head. What's the chance that Kempo is going to enter in?
Matt King:
Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I figured it was about 75%. Yeah. Which maybe that's even a low number. Yeah. For those. For those of you who are not New England, martial arts, I guess native is the right word. There are hotbeds and I'm sure wherever everybody sees us there are hotbeds of various martial arts in various places. And Rhode Island is a hotbed for Kempo.
Matt King:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think I'm trying to think of others that we've had on when I think of the other folks that I know we've had on from Rhode Island Kempo enters into the equation for just about all of them.
Matt King:
Yeah, I mean I don't know many people from Rhode Island or from New England, and I'm aware of who did any sort of martial arts as a kid, and did not set foot in a Kempo school at some point. Whether it was a long tenure or something that was short lived, and they found, you know, some of the Taekwondo in the area or something else. Almost. Everyone's like, oh, yeah, I remember that dojo on that corner next to that old candy store. That's now a gas station then. Yeah, it’s a nice feeling. It's like, oh, yeah, it's very Rhode Island.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's you all have some certain things. I mean, everybody's got those things. Right. I'm in Vermont, we have certain things and, you know, depending on area of the state, you know, it's a lot of Taekwondo.
Matt King:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One or two, actually north and south. It's a lot of Taekwondo. So yeah, I'm with you. Alright. So, you're morphing into your final form. Yeah. So, learning sword college. And there's a lot going on. And how did this transitional point, how did that play out, as you know, you were kind of graduating off into your academics and the beginning of adult life.
Matt King:
It was very odd. As someone who finishing up high school wanting to do something, but not sure what the only thing I really cared about, the only thing. I really knew for sure was I want to keep training. And that was like, wherever I go, no matter what happens wherever I end up, I just want to keep trying. But it was trying to pick where to go, what to do, what to study. My parents were very strict about needing to go to a four-year college. So, I was lucky enough that my best friend who I've known since kindergarten, and both got into Rhode Island College. We got to live together on campus was awesome. But the more awesome part was, I got to train a lot. I started training in short, three or four days a week, I started training at the shoulder new karate school. And I because my schedule was kind of flexible, because I picked all of my classes around when I wanted to train. Exactly how you should go to college. Totally, yeah, absolutely. Dear, just learn from my mistakes. Focus on your schoolwork. It'll just make it so much easier during finals. It worked out that I became quite close with the shoulder new teacher and I was always available during the kids' classes that he had multiple nights a week. So, I would show up and just be okay. And I would just be the punching dummy for all the kids' classes because I was like I'm trying to learn exactly what it is you do. And I'm trying to learn the differences. And I'm, you know, years behind where I think I want to be. So, I pretty much would get to go to that school and train hours every few nights a week. And I thought it was amazing because I got to learn so much so fast from an excellent teacher. His name is Joe Aiello. He lives in Connecticut now. But I got to form such good relationships with the young students, the children that were training there and it was Interesting to be in, though, in that role, as you know, 18/19-year-old kid in a room, but also being a fully functional adult and knowing how to comport myself for the most part. And I really have to thank again, the teachers that I had, you know, growing up, predominantly, Michael [00:25:23-00:25:24] was the Kempo teacher that I was training with in high school, his school, United temple, Karate. I mean, excellent role models, mentors, strong and stable influences on a young adult's life that set me up for not just training and martial arts and just being in the dojo. But I mean, just learning how to comfort yourself on a day-to-day basis in whatever situation you're going to be and is one of the things that I truly love and think is worth training. And I think martial arts and Budo and traditional martial arts in particular, I think, really can help someone with.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Preaching to the choir here.
Matt King:
Yeah, sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now what about on the other side, other side of your four-year martial arts intensive. What happened next?
Matt King:
It was a good, it was a really good effort to train throughout early 20s. Just as much as I possibly could. Wasn't a pretty serious relationship for most of college and took about pretty much my senior year off of training, partially due to the relationship, partially due to the insanity that is trying to double major and a college. But for me, the important part was I stopped going to the dojo, unfortunately, but what I never stopped was training. So, I was always out in the backyard, I was always trying to, you know, work on the things that I had been shown and I had been taught. Because I didn't want to lose any of it. My goal was always to go back to the dojo someday. But when college ended, the relationship ended. And I kind of wanted to get back to what I had known what it always made me happy. And I drove down to Connecticut on a Saturday morning pretty early. And a few things have changed from the last time I'd been at the dojo and filling out another registration form. And who walks in but Johnstone Sensei anyway? Oh, you still train. He's like, oh, we're on the other side. Now go over there and change. Nice. And I was like, okay, yeah, this still feels like home.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was going to poke at was that feeling that, you know, there's something to be said, for stepping back into training. And I've had a couple experiences with this where five years, 10 years, honestly, the longest period of time was those 25 years, just about 25 years, in between training with certain people. And you step back in and there's something that never changes. You spend enough time with those people and maybe your skills change, hopefully, they improve, and vice versa, their skills, change and improve. But there's a quality in the way that you work with someone that I don't know that I can put it into words, maybe you can.
Matt King:
I completely agree. I think that and there are times where whether or not you haven't seen the person in a while and you see him in a dojo again. When you're doing this, and you're committed to it, and there's sometimes that commitment and that agreement to doing it, even if there's years between life happens, all these things. Sometimes the factor into that, in my opinion, necessarily is skill. You don't have to be the most skilled person at something to have a positive impact when you're training with other people. Sometimes it's just who you are and what you bring to the floor. Because you know, we sometimes we talk about when we're training you know, you leave things on the mat or you leave things at the door. But you are the whole you that you are. There's so much that any one person can bring in everyone is so uniquely, individually, brilliantly special in their life, that you never know who's going to touch your life. How in any sort stance but I think at the dojo we all kind of open ourselves up to, you know, really having a hopefully having a very positive effect on everybody else's life. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's important to I think drive for that. It's not always going to happen for everyone. We're not in volume, but it's a good goal.
Matt King:
Yeah, it's something I try and think about too. And then there's it's kind of the family, you choose a lot of the time. And for sure, there's always a good feeling of like, something comes up and you're not sure it's a good feeling. It's always nice as a reminder, when something comes up, and you can't make the event or you can't do this, and you see a person again, and they look at you, and they're looking at you, like, you know, you skipped Easter dinner or when grandma was or so and yeah, where are you and there, you know, they come in, I do the same thing, I go to certain places, and I don't travel a lot. But there are certain places I go, or certain events I go to where I know that there are going to be people there from all over. And I look forward to seeing them just as much, if not more sometimes than I do when there are big family gatherings. Because they're the people I consider my family to.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get it, I'm right there with you. And I think that it's a wonderful feeling to know that you are wanted in that way. Hey, you missed such and such event, you know, somebody doesn't care. They don't say anything.
Matt King:
Yeah. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They said something so they care. And you know, we don't talk too often on this show about the family dynamic that often arises out of a martial arts school, it doesn't happen in every school, I've been to plenty of schools where that doesn't happen. But for the majority, there's something that is intimate, I don't mean in a sexual way. But there's something that is intimate about trading sweat and blood and volunteering the use of your body to someone else for their martial arts development whether it's very light, or even no touch up to, you know, really pounding each other in the skull.
Matt King:
Yeah, I agree. It's certain types of training, certain times of training in certain schools or with certain people, or even just, you know, in someone's life, where they are at this time. Training can be a very intimate thing. And like he said, it's really just, you know, I don't open up personally to some random stranger about how I'm feeling on any certain day. That's what I'm talking about. But if I'm willing to agree to be, you know, ferociously attacking someone, I've got to really commit to that type of training. And they have to agree to that also. And that's kind of a conversation in a relationship. You don't just have with people even you consider your best friend. You're not just racking them with physical pain all the time. And then like giving each other a hug with a big smile as you can't shake hands because your wrists are too bruised.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, the trust that is required is so it's intense, even at an early level, early stages of training, you have to submit to this environment that is built on trust. And the schools that I see that don't work, it's because that trust is not fostered at a high level.
Matt King:
Yeah, right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When the trust is there, everything else usually falls into place.
Matt King:
I would agree. That type of it, I think it lends itself very much to in, you know, in Japanese sword. I've always been told, all my teachers have always said, you assume that the person that you would be fighting is at least as good as you are. if not better, you're the... These aren't civilian fighting traditions. This is, you know, Budo martial art in the purest sense of this was, you know, a warrior caste method. It's always kind of fun to have to sit there and realize that, you know, not only do I have to trust myself, to not hurt anybody, try and take care of everybody. I know the things I need to know well enough that I can just do them and try to not dwell on them or bring them too much. But you're putting a whole lot of faith in anybody else's ability to do the exact same thing. And not only does it might not jive as far as just a dojo dynamic or a group dynamic, but there are certain types of training. There are certain things you're doing, especially when you bring weapons in, you know, there sometimes isn't a second chance. There's a very good point. There’s a whole lot of you know, I've been at events when someone you know, not certainly, not intentionally, I certainly hope not intentionally, but a mistake was made. And, you know, we're training with bulkhead, and we're training in a group, but it might be tight quarters, and all of a sudden you hear the whack of someone getting whacked with a piece of oak. And it's terrifying and like, everybody freezes for a second. And of course, the person feels terrible. But we try and train with the mentality that that's not a wooden sword, that's a sword made of wood. And there are different people in different histories that proved that and it is still a lethal weapon. And even just blinks span of time is all it takes that have that lack of mindfulness that we're all trying to train for. And you know, there's no apologies, right? That fosters the growth of a very different type of relationship than even the people I would consider my most dear friends, the two o'clock on the side of the road, I'm broken down who do I call list of people? I don't even know those people. I don't want swinging swords in my head. I don't get it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now you brought up something that I'm thinking might be interesting. The impact of making a mistake, when you have a sword, even if it's a sword made of wood, is different than the impact of missing a kick, you know, missing the pole of a punch. You've trained in sword and non-sword arts. Does that discrepancy between the two leads to any, let's say cultural or environmental differences in the schools and the relationships that are fostered between the students?
Matt King:
I would think, yes. Unfortunate as well that training currently with Johnstone Sensei, not only do we study Japanese swordsmanship, but we also practice it Jiu Jitsu, I've studied some coffee with him, but also have done you know, boxing outside and kickboxing. And it's very different, because I've been punched in the face a lot. And that is not a brag. I would rather get punched in the face. Again, over getting hit with a Vulcan, or, you know, a metal sword edge or not, it is a very different relationship to threat. We constantly train even empty handed with the idea of, even if even if it's not brawn, being in an empty hand encounters still an edged weapon environment. And when you're trying to really land a good hook on someone to do damage, you have to deliver that type of force very differently than if you had a knife in your hand. It can be very fast, very snappy, and you got to get you have to train differently have to react differently. I think that I'm fortunate in the way that when you kind of recalibrate some of your mindset to the tip speed of a sword fist just can't move that fast. Right? But it's again, it's fostering the appreciation of the combative distance the environment. And it's funny too, because there are people who have started training sword or train sword maybe a little more casually, who come in and it's not that they don't respect it, the tool or the weapon or the ideas, but it's a very different environment for them. And sometimes there's a kind of a delay in in the translation of just how serious we're going to take this. But I've also I think I looked; I was starting to I started learning sword. At the same time, I really started digging into like Okinawan Kobudo and one of the best things that I think [00:39:37-00:38:39] Sensei had ever done. He absolutely loved bowl and love Yari spear. And we used to both fight with six-foot-long return. Yeah, and goalie helmet on, lacrosse.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow, you were really going at it. Yeah.
Matt King:
And he had a set. He [00:40:00-00:40:01] was fighting sticks. And we ran these drills of, you know, freezing hands and disarms. And it was it was sparring with a weapon. And I had done you know, knife sparring before where you either chalk the blade or you put lipstick on the blade, and that changed the, you know, completely changed the proximity. But man getting cracked full across the not even. I can honestly, I can remember how it feels and it wasn't across the head. It was a cross the shin with a six-foot-long return when I'm like, I'm too far away. He can't hit me there. And man. Oh, man, did that not work out for me. But it changed again, it changed my relationship and appreciation in just how close or how far or like we were saying, who I trust to train with. I'm very defensive and on the defense with people who I might be wary about while training. And sometimes that's worse, because now I'm overthinking things, and I'm more prone to mistakes. But I'm trying to make sure that I have all my hands tomorrow for typing, or it's a very different appreciation. For the same reason I imagine, you know, anybody who goes to a boxing gym regularly, you have someone new coming in trying to knock everybody's head off, you can go. No, I'm fine. I'm not going to spar today.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Great point. There's something in the way that you're talking about your sword work that has inspired me to ask this question a little bit of background person, I have this theory that the first martial art that you put any real time into becomes kind of the language to which you refer everything else. You know, as an example, my initial training, my first 14 years, 16 years of training was in karate. And I've branched out. I've done a bunch of different things. But when I do Taekwondo, anybody who really knows what's going on looks at and says, that's a karate guy do in Taekwondo. When I think about Taekwondo movements, I relate them back to karate, when I've trained in Kempo and Eskrima. And everything else that I've done, it comes back to this language that I have in within my body of karate. And when I talk to other people, when we have people on the show, it seems to support this theory that the first thing you train in becomes the thing in which all your martial arts refer back to. But it almost sounds like that is not the case for you. That even though your first experience in martial arts was Kempo. It sounds like just in the way you're using words and you're describing principles that your sword work has become your reference point from which you refer to the other things. Am I off track here?
Matt King:
No, in it very much feels like that. When I process things, when I went to do... I spent time hanging out with MMA guys and Brazilian jujitsu, schools and people and I trained with a fantastic coach in Moussaieff, Connecticut, fantastic city name. His name's [00:43:28-00:43:30] and we were doing sambal it everything always comes back to cut to center posture, keeping my hips pressuring semi and it is the vernacular that makes sense to me. And I think it holds true maybe not that it was my first martial art I ever trained. But looking at it now, I'm 33 and I started training when I was 17. With Johnson sensei and sword with some breaks in between. It is the lens in which I view all martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. And yeah, and that's what I was hearing. And I think that you're an exception. I mean, certainly, theories are meant to be tested. But I think you're the first person that I can concretely say, yeah, what I've heard contradicts my theory. Because fascinating to me. And how much of that do you think is because your passion for the sword work? You know, it was delayed, you know, there was definitely some delayed gratification but again, we go back to this very early idea of what martial arts was for you. And it was rooted in this desire to you probably would have used the verb play back then but to utilize to train with these weapons, specifically sword. Yeah. Yeah. And everything else was a holding pattern until you got there.
Matt King:
Yeah, it was a dream. And it was, you know, I knew that in eventually in Kempo. They teach you some sort stuff. And I was like, oh, okay, I'll get there someday. And then I found out, you can just go, you can just go study. So where are you? Are you kidding me? Like...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't have to do this other stuff.
Matt King:
Yeah. Like, I still want to go do all that other stuff, too. But are you kidding me right now? It was. And I think for me, it's the reason why I still love it so much. It is something that is there, there are so many different sword styles, you can train and so many fantastic people you can train with. I am so unbelievably fortunate that all of the crazy random happenstances could have aligned to be fortunate enough to find a fantastic teacher and a line of teachers, and a fantastic group with an art and a style that is so well preserved. It's just I don't know of many people that have found it, how to found the thing that they want to keep doing when they were 17 years old.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a great point. Are you as passionate about it? Still, as you were, then?
Matt King:
Um, yes, I would say I think that I have appreciate it differently now. Okay, um, what does that mean? When I was younger, God, that makes me sound so old. When I was younger, I love to train because I love to train. I just I wanted to be doing something I always wanted to move, it was my favorite thing to do. It was my favorite form of exercise, I would train, I would get up and train at 6am class, and I would train in the afternoon. And then when I got home, I would want to train again. And I absolutely loved it. But I think with age. And I'd also, you know, we were talking a little bit before about just kind of the vibe of the dojo and the trust of people there. And I'm extremely fortunate that I've had some really excellent teachers, but also mentors, who taught me a lot more than just how to throw a punch or swing a sword or smack someone Shin with a ball or anything. I very much learned the person I wanted to be from the people I was training. And now being 33 years old, having you know, a big boy job, and owning a home and being married and all these other things. I honestly don't think I would be the same person if I had just stopped training. I think it has fundamentally changed and influenced the person I am today. And I think it's one of the reasons. I just appreciate it so much now. Because everybody else is a perfectly functional human being without it. And I'm very jealous.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's interesting as there are a lot of things like this, that as we make them core to who we are, as we build our foundation around something, in this case, martial arts, you know, this is something I feel you feel, I'm sure a huge portion, and maybe even the majority of the listeners feel. We're great with it, we're better with it. But without it, we are below the average person without it. Because we are so aware of what it is that we have depended on we've put stock of who we are into it. And the absence is rough. And for a lot of us, you know over the last year with COVID. That's really surface. We've seen that, oh, this is not a version of me that I enjoy. For example, I've heard that from you.
Matt King:
Yeah, definitely. That's it definitely is it changes you. It kind of Earth changes me. I think it does a lot to, in a lot of ways just curb my own ego when it starts to rise because no one's perfect. We are all very flawed individuals at the same time as being amazing. But it for me, Carl Long Sensei is the current [00:50:10-00:50:12] of this sword group and we have the calls we've had this past year and you know, talking about stuff, one of the main things that he says that sticks with me is he talks about the real dojo is in the heart. And how, you know, it's important, and he's really looking forward to seeing everybody again, and he really wants people to, you know, remember the feeling, even if you can't be there right now, of just how straight your back is when you're in the dojo, changing that step on the mat for class. And remember, just how good you feel about how the problems that you had on the drive over and how you're going to make things work right now they're not they're not, you know, weights that you're towing behind you. And remember that feeling because that's the important. That's the thing that you can bring into the world to help other people and you know that you're boodle that your training will really show people what it's doing for you are the real dojo is in the heart. And it's something you know, Johnson Sensei has said time and time again to all of us and you know, we're fortunate enough because this year has been really rough. It's really put a dividing line between what we can do, what we want to do, what's important to us. And I love so many things. I music is amazing. I love movies. I'm a huge did nerd. I there's, there's so many things I love, but when it comes back to the things that enrich my life, and make me a better person, for all of the other people in my life, I need to always make sure I make time for my training for Butoh to make sure that I keep myself on the right path.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I get that. I totally get that. And do you have any advice? I guess let's say we have newer martial artists listening who were nodding along and they might be saying, you know, guys, I get it, I understand it conceptually. But how does that how do I do that? What can I do you know, maybe I'm a month in or a year in or, you know, really any length of time, but what advice would you give someone who's asking how do I support that need and myself?
Matt King:
Read more Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That would work. That is a way, right. There's a joke there, but I don't think it's wrong.
Matt King:
Yeah. It's funny because again, I feel like for so long, I've been probably the youngest guy in the room at a lot of things. So, like constantly feel out of place. I growing up that was how I felt in even in my late 20s. That's kind of how I felt. But the one of the ideas that kind of always comes back to me is you when you're deciding to do this when you're deciding to train. The important part is to keep training. And the training isn't just show up to class on time. Remember all the moves. It is trying to keep a sense and an understanding of what it is you're trying to do when hopefully that's you know, be a better person who enrich your own life, hopefully enrich other people's lives. I have been unbelievably fortunate. Training in my time and growing up that I was always the person who would volunteer to go get punched somewhere at an event. And I cannot tell you how that has benefited me. Because that one, I got more training time I got very used to being out in front of people and I got used to having to go and talk to complete strangers and when you're, you know, a 21/22-year-old person or younger. Trying to do that. And you know, I think I had gone on to job interviews before. A lot of this time. Yeah, if I'm going to go throw punches at grown men at some event to try and do a technique that neither one of us are good at, yeah, I can sit down and talk about my job experience for the next 45 minutes. I'm not afraid of that. It's the reason I still keep I put martial arts on my resume, too. It's a fantastic conversation starter. But there's so many lessons to learn. You've got to be willing to sacrifice I think, especially, you know, there's levels to that you are in... Aren't going to be comfortable with when you start training. But if you make it a priority in your life, to the best of your ability, if you're able to sacrifice things here and there to make events and make time and help out. I think it pays dividends later on. Because you're someone who can be seen as reliable, you understand how to comport yourself, hopefully better than you might otherwise. It's a hard question because you know, I think it may come into play, you know, when you find what you want to do, if you're someone who is like I was a teenager, you kind of control responsibility to the wind some time and really make your own schedule around things. When you're someone who's a little bit older, and you've got a little bit more responsibilities, you just make the best of every situation, make the best of every training, genuine and train with an open heart. And I think people see that I think people can feel it, and they're going to want to random with you, they're going to want you to come back, they're going to want you around.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I want to connect a couple dots in there. We talked earlier about the relationship that comes from the intimacy of training with people. And then you talked about kind of I don't really use quite these words, but making other people the priority, this kind of notion of service and deferment, you were going to these events, getting punched, building those relationships. Not only do I think those Connect, I think it's the only way because in order for martial arts to work, as we understand it, someone has to make someone else's training a priority. Your instructor is making your training a priority. And in doing so, they're benefiting, maybe they're benefiting financially, maybe they're benefiting by becoming a better martial artist themselves as they explain things. Ideally, both. But if you practice selfish martial arts, nobody wins. Yeah. If you practice selfless martial arts, everyone wins. Yeah.
Matt King:
I agree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I just wanted to connect those dots. For the listeners, I think that those are important concepts that that we've just worked through.
Matt King:
Yeah, I think it's a... We talked about it sometimes in the if you've ever taken music lessons, and you don't practice between the lessons, you can do it very slowly. It just, it doesn't work that way. If you're committed to training, if you're paying to go to training, you're paying for someone's time you're taking up other people's time, if you haven't practiced, you're going to get good very slowly, and you may not be in a race, that's probably not the point. But the other person may have trained really hard and kind of studied up for the class so that they're ready to really train hard and diligently. And all of a sudden, they got to shift gears down to meet you where you are, that's going to happen every day, every time you ever train. But if you commit to putting in the work outside of class and not just in class, you're going to be rewarded so much by enhancing your own trading, enhancing other people's training, feeling like you are not behind the eight ball when you're trying to get things done. And that's another you know, it comes down to you know, personal sacrifice of you know, am I not going to go out because I want to train tonight. Am I going to wake up early tomorrow so I can run through Kata again? Or am I going to you know, really look back on the notes I took 10 years ago because that those two different paired sets are a little hazy right now. All of those you know, it's being a very, it's not taking it as like a passive bystander.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I gotcha. I'm with you. nodding along, nodding along on everything that you've been saying today.
Matt King:
I also want to unfortunately clarify what I make the joke that goes somewhere and get punched in the face. It sounds so abusive. It's not. It's just the morbid humor of being. Yeah, I wouldn't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't know that you need to explain that here. I think everyone gets that.
Matt King:
So, I just didn't want it to come off as too morbid or to, to kind of unfortunate. I love every event that I've ever been in a better part of. And even the times when you get, you know, an unexpected shot here or there because an accident happens or distances wrong, I mean, even then you take them in stride.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right, right, because again, you have to because we have to have that trust that relationship with each other else. The training doesn't work. You can only train as hard as the trust supports.
Matt King:
Exactly. Doing events and having gone places with Johnstone sensei as my primary teacher. It's funny, because Johnstone Sensei, you know, maybe I think he's 5’11. he's probably you know, 181/85 of just like, built muscle. And I'm s6’1, just over 300 pounds. When he tells me to throw haymakers boy Howdy, I'm throwing haymakers and I'm not throwing a miss, I'm throwing a hit. And that took a long time to develop that training in that trust, we didn't start out doing that. Never, you never start out at Mach 10, everybody, but when you're trying to demonstrate the effectiveness of a technique or an idea, and it's possible, if you bunch, it works really well, but you actually got someone throwing shots at. And I can only do that, because I know, he's good enough that he can handle this. And you build those relationships up with different trading partners or teachers over a long period of time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hmm, that's for sure. Hey, if people want to get ahold of you, is there anything we can give him some social media, some email, something like that?
Matt King:
I'm on Facebook, under Matt King, I think it might be Matt King 2287. I am also on Instagram with the same handle and my email address would be mking2287. If anybody ever wanted to reach out or talk about martial arts, or if you're in Rhode Island or New England, or, you know, please feel free I'm a pretty chatty person.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is it your birthday?
Matt King:
No, it's not. It's just numbers.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I’m trying to do the math and do the math. But it was close.
Matt King:
My birthday is actually 11/22/87. So, I just put 22/87 because I needed four numbers, I think it's like my AOL. Back in like...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Your aim screen name.
Matt King:
Yeah. But some something like that. I love needed numbers, because like my sister had numbers, so, I thought that was cool. But my mom's like, don't put your birthday down. I was like, I won't. I'll do something else. And now and now anytime someone sees it, like, oh, you're born in February? What? No, no. Not quite true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Rock on? Well, this has been great. I appreciate you coming on and being so fun and open. And you know, indulging all my silly questions. It's been great.
Matt King:
Thanks for having me. I hope I didn't ramble too much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you rambled perfectly. And I'm going to ask you to ramble just a little bit more. This is where you close it up. And then I'll record an outro later on. So, what are your last words to the audience today?
Matt King:
Oh, man, Live long and prosper. I guess. I don't know if you can use that soundbite, sorry. You know, as someone who... It's funny to have had the conversation with my absolutely lovely wife and friends and you know, people who are dear to me, and this is something I plan on training in whatever capacity I can for as long as I can. I want to make it a lifelong contributor to what I can get from it and more importantly, what I give to it and give to other people. I just hope that everybody, especially with the world the way it is right now COVID and so many things going on that I hope that people can find some solace in their training and by hope that it can kind of reignite a passion they have in themselves for bettering themselves and hopefully being a better person for everybody that they might find in their life. It really has the capacity to do that. I believe.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What a good time. I told you in the intro, we got into some really cool stuff. And if you're still listening, it's because well, you listened to what I say? It's true. There's some really cool stuff. And how about that that transitional point of starting to see the world, not from the Kempo that he grew up with. But through the lens of a sword. I found that absolutely fascinating. Maybe you didn't, but I did. Because I think it's the first time, we've ever seen that from a guest. So really cool. Sensei, thanks for coming on the show had a blast, we will talk again, I'm no doubt. Now those of you listening you can get more, you can go deeper, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Go find the videos in the links and the photos in the social media and all that good stuff that we post over there for every single episode, like this one, and transcripts make it up there eventually, we've had a little bit of a delay on some of them. But they're getting there. We're getting through the backlog. So, if you want to read or, you know, search, if there's something that somebody said, and you're saying, why didn't somebody talk about this in a prior episode, hey, that's part of why we put the transcripts together helps you get what you want to need out of each and every episode. And if that means something to you, if you want to support that, you've got some choices. You could leave a review, you could buy a book on Amazon, or you can help out with our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. And do you know we have the only speed development program designed for martial artists? A program to make you faster designed specifically to make you faster? Yep, we do. I made it myself. Did a bunch of research. It's super cool. It works. And you can get it at whistlekickprograms.com, check it out. You will get faster. You have my word. And if you use the code PODCAST15, you're getting 15% of that or any other program or any of the stuff at whistlekick.com Yeah, you can still get the programs at whistlekick.com. You know, don't worry, don't worry. Nothing's... It's not going anywhere. But if you've got guest suggestions, those are going somewhere. Those are coming to us from you. Email me jeremy@whistlekick.com or social media. We put a lot of effort into it. It’s @whistlekick. And that closes it up today. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.