Episode 586 - Hanshi Patrick McCarthy
Hanshi Patrick McCarthy is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor, and director of the International Ryukyu Karate Research Society (IRKRS).
You can tell people anything, but you can’t make anyone do anything. I think the idea of showing somebody how to learn seems to be more fruitful in the long run that telling, explaining, or offering what to learn.
I think that role for a teacher or a mentor, if you are trying to empower someone, it’s kind of nice to let them discover for themselves with a little bit of coaching.
Hanshi Patrick McCarthy - Episode 586
With years and years of Martial Arts experience acquired directly from the descendants of the Okinawan Martial Arts in Okinawa, Japan, our guest today needs no introduction. Hanshi Patrick McCarthy, a Canadian who migrated to Japan in the 1980s then presently in Australia, is a pillar of the Traditional Martial Arts having written a lot of books about it such as the Classical Kata of Okinawan Karate, Ancient Okinawan Martial Arts: Volumes 1 & 2, and many others. In this epic episode, Hanshi Patrick McCarthy delivers an astounding revelation of his journey in the Arts and most importantly, the wisdom that he acquired through years of training. Listen to learn more!
Show Notes
In this episode, we mentioned Bas Rutten, Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris Bill “Superfoot” Wallace
Get Hanshi Patrick McCarthy’s books on Amazon
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Welcome! You're listening to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 586 with today's guest, Sensei Patrick McCarthy. I'm Jeremy Lesniak, host for the show, founder of whistlekick where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. You learn more about what we do. What we do. Here we go, go to whitlekick.com. That's where you find everything we've got going on. From our store, where you can make a purchase and support us to the other projects. Website things that we're funding and growing. And it's all in the name of supporting you, the traditional martial artist. This podcast gets tons on a website which is whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. The show comes out 2 times each and every week. With the purpose of connecting, educating and entertaining the traditional martial arts world. If you want to support that work, there are a number of ways you can help: you can make a purchase, share an episode, follow us on social media, tell a friend about us, get the books on Amazon or support the Patreon. If you think the new shows we’re doing worth a few cents, yes, you know the fact that you get access to all the other stuff. Plus, the fact that if you throw in a couple Bucks, we’ll give even more stuff that you don't get elsewhere. Consider supporting the Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. It's just one of the many ways that we are trying to cover our costs. There's a good chance that you know today's guest. You probably know his name but if not, there's a good chance you know some of the work that he's done. As an author, translator, speaker, seminar presenter, organization he has been involved in the martial arts for a very, very long time. And our recent conversation is best. We talked about a lot of things for quite a long time. If you haven't checked the length of this episode, well guess what? You're in for a treat because it's kind of like we're giving you 3 episodes all at once. There are plenty of knowledgeable people out there. There are also plenty of people who enjoy speaking on their knowledge but you don't have a lot of people who are really knowledgeable, able to speak at length about the things that they know and passionate about and do so in an entertaining and educational way. Sensei McCarty is that rare intersection. I hung out listening as you will hear for most of the episode, in the same way that you will. My job as an interviewer is to get people to talk. I didn't have to work that hard on this one. And it was great because it led to some absolutely wonderful stuff and I said go, he went and the result was an amazing experience that you get to be part of. One caution that you should be aware of, there are some explicit words in this episode and we've elected to not censor. So, here we go. Hello, Sir. How are you?
Patrick McCarthy:
Good morning. Actually, it is a good evening. How are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, my morning… Your morning, my evening.
Patrick McCarthy:
Yeah, may I ask you what exactly are your [00:03:31-00:03:33]. Okay. I'm assuming that you have a bit of snow over there right now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We have a bit of snow 7 months a year.
Patrick McCarthy:
It's such a beautiful part of the country though, isn't it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It is. It's a wonderful place and and most importantly the people here will do anything for you that's why I choose to live here.
Patrick McCarthy:
I haven't been over there many, many years. You know, originally, I'm from New Brunswick.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I didn’t know.
Patrick McCarthy:
North, yeah. And we used to ski in Vermont. So, look at that would truly be an, gosh, 50 years ago.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, what a trip. I know people here who head out to New Brunswick. All to go skiing. Yeah, you have great skiing out there.
Patrick McCarthy:
So, now okay. So, this is audio only?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, audio only. We can wander around, part of my process. I tend to meander and pace back and forth and step back from the microphone when you're talking. We get to do all those fun things.
Patrick McCarthy:
That's great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That we're looking.
Patrick McCarthy:
Good. I guess we're starting… we start... we start sooner.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, it’s not live. So, we can start whenever. I will be honest and you know…
Patrick McCarthy:
Okay, great.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We have a decision we can make at this point. We can just go and see where it takes us or I can kind of put a hard stop on what we've already said and we can, well, you can enter but I got the feeling that you're good to go. You know, what you're doing.
Patrick McCarthy:
You know, there's a great quote. I suppose it might be more of a metaphor than a quote. When Winston Churchill was in the post war years. You know and he was asked to speak. I believe it was the Geneva convention, maybe. He asked the organizers how long would you like to speak for. [00:05:39-00:05:42]. I'm sorry, what do you mean? Well, he’s a good man. If you'd like me to speak for an hour, I’ll need only a few days to prove it. If you like me to speak for 2 hours or a day or so, if you'd like me to speak all night, I'm ready to go right now.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It reminds me of a.... Is it a Mark Twain quote? I don't have time to write you a short letter so I wrote you a long one.
Patrick McCarthy:
Very Nice. [00:06:08-00:06:13].
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I'm. Let's just keep going. So, you know that I think right off the bat, you know thanks for doing this, I appreciate it.
Patrick McCarthy:
Can I ask you a question?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes.
Patrick McCarthy:
I'm sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Go for it. How did you exactly arrive with this interview? Well, you've been… I've been aware of you and we... So, the show whistlekick in general, it's not just me. There are others who can contribute to this process.
Patrick McCarthy:
You have hundreds of hundreds of interviews.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah. you are scheduled to be 586.
Patrick McCarthy:
That’s fantastic. Congratulations!
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you, thank you. You know, I try to apply the martial arts methodology to anything which is... You are really bad at it for a long, long time and then wait until everybody else stops doing it. And then you get to be okay and in comparison, people actually think you're really good because nobody else is put in the time to be really, really bad.
Patrick McCarthy:
Well, look at it and with all due respect. I never heard of your... You know, I've never heard of your program and when your colleague contacted me. I was like “right, yeah sure”. [00:07:30-00:07-38] You go to the website and I go. I mostly spent 3:00 hours on your website just…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you!
Patrick McCarthy:
Listening to some of the interviews. Absolutely fantastic. And then. Yeah, you're right. You're going to automatically become one of our favorites [00:07:53-00:07:55] with my group and go and listen. [00:07:58-00:08 :05]. Well, not necessarily champions. You know, you don't need to speak to a champion to get good news. And you, you’ve got every traditional, contemporary, eclectic. It's all there. So, congrats to you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you, thank you. Let me respond to that and then I'll answer your question. I can already tell this is going to be fun because you know, there's been nothing linear about anything either of us has said in the last few minutes. So, I'm super excited. I strongly believe the Martial arts context. The stories, the history, the lineage, the spirit, all that is so relevant. It matters so much and it is the part that individuals will ignore the most. A martial arts instructor will teach their students, maybe where they come from, technique, kata, sparring. You know all the stuff but they leave out the reason they started training and who they trained with and why they trained and their own personal story which gives so much depth. And I feel that it's really important we chronicle that. I think this format works well. We’ve had several guests who have passed away and those stories now stand. Their families and their students get to hear them as they were in that moment that day. And I think that's meaningful and you know we release every episode for free. You don’t have to pay for anything ever to get access to any of them and I've always said feel free to distribute as much as you want. As long as they stay in entirety. If you want to chop it up, I want to review what you're doing but if you're just listening, by all means, do it. Sure. Well, you know to answer your question why, you know, how did this happen. I believe it was Andrew who said. Why haven't. Why hasn't. McCarty Sensei has been on the show and I said you know; I can't answer that. He said, well, let's fix this. So, we did. Yeah, just a lot of great people to talk to. And then following those paths out and getting the connections and building up the show enough that people such as yourself, will say yes, you know that takes time.
Patrick McCarthy:
Well, I only listened to 5 interviews. So, sorry. So, it's obvious I have like 547...
Jeremy Lesniak:
How dare you.
Patrick McCarthy:
You know, look at me, just before we get to the school martial arts thing, it was interesting. I'm a very good visual learner [00:10:53-00:10:56]. I've never really placed much, sorry, was thinking as a younger man.... [00:11:07-00:11:11] I never really had placed a lot of emphasis on the auditory part. You know when you're a kid you're so busy doing other things. [00:11:11-00:11:16] Some years ago I came in contact with the television series called the Actor's workshop and I'm not an actor or exposed to all of this or some way or another. And the very first episode, I bumped into let's say accidentally. I interviewed… So, the interviewer ran, literally, you know, as part of a college in New York. And he trained actors and part of this program was to bring along you know a Hollywood A listers. I guess once a month or at least certainly once an episode. You know it was in an auditorium and makes it sounds, you know, kind of with the arm chairs sitting beside each other and a cup of coffee or a refreshment. And just said you know, tell us your story and would ask questions. He was very famous at the end for asking the same question. How do you respond to these and shoot them out and you have to answer them on the spot? And for me, I love movies but not compared to books but second to I love visual things. I listen to Charlton Heston feed and now you know, Charlton Heston feed was one of the, I want to say, classically trained actors. You know back, during the day, Hollywood had very high requirements to be an A lister. You know, there you were [00:13:07-00:13:12]. There were shame issues between Charleston and some of the other A listers that they hate working with. But when the interviewer asked him the questions, every time he responded to the question it was always something positive to say. And part of you, if you knew, I mean if you didn't know, you sure you would have never guessed such. Especially, knowing there were issues particularly female leading roles. [00:13:44-00:13:47]. He was so polite; it was so forthcoming. But always sought to display his concern or opinion in a very positive way. That’s an art. You know, that’s an art. And I speak a lot.
You know and I have traveled around the world, teach a lot of seminars and gosh since 1993. And I know that the power of the word can really influence people within your range. Speak your answer. I think very hard about how I should voice my opinion about particular things and protect the listener from my own bias. You know, there's no other... You know, you’re always looking for ways with which to kind of make yourself better. [00:14:46-00:14:49] trying to constantly improve yourself. It's only just a little bit. You know, even if it's a couple steps forward and one step back. You want to try to be a little bit better today than you were yesterday. And listening to guys like the man about the program. The arts workshops give me an idea. So, I found every one of those episodes then downloaded them and I listen to them and now I have to listen to them for a while [00:15:20-00:15:28] we'll go back and listen to what one of these guys said because you know, you mentioned it's kind of like that Samurai cherry blossom metaphor. You know, life is not as long as most people think it is and people who reach the top of their game may only stay there for a little while. It's like a cherry blossom mentality. You know they burst out into an array of beauty and that doesn't last long before they fall off the branch in the summer. That warrior mentality was to live gloriously. Knowing that your demise was going to be the highlight of your life. I thought you know the more I can read or listen to other people, the greater understanding that I can have when it sums up together. And that's right. That's right. It really targeted my interest and persona. One particular...
I first heard it from a German philosopher who came to Japan a very long time ago. It was Eugene Herrigel. He wasn't sure if he wanted to study the arts. He found himself through the connection with this practice and where I used to live... I used to live in Kanagawa prefecture. You know, Fujisawa. There was an 8- or 9-minute train ride from me. There's a temple, Kita Katamura. The reason we used to go down there is because it was a stone monument dedicated to [00:17:16-00:17-30] walk by the archery range where Eugene Herrigel used a lot of errors. As in his pursuit for better understanding. Yeah. He’s bold. Still hangs up on the Dojo wall to serve as a visual reminder of the half way and his journey that took him from his home in Germany to Japan. And I like to because it kind of helps with that simplicity thing. No less is more. And understanding the value of what harms nature and all these types of things is going to give you at least, peacefulness. So, we all understand how a life is best lived. And like getting this, I guess the mentality or your mindset to which it often depends how far down we get before becomes evident that the destination is now actually the gold. It is the journey and whatever, you know... For example, to myself now, in the role as a mentor to many other young students and members. What better thing can you offer someone than the benefit of your wisdom or your experience or what your experiences have given you over the years. If only in a guiding mindset. Yeah, I think you can. You can tell people anything but you can't make anyone do anything and I think the idea of showing somebody perhaps how to learn. Seems to be more fruitful in the long run than telling you and explaining to them your offer. I think that role: a teacher or mentor or a guide, you know, whatever you want to call it. You know, if you're trying to empower someone. It's kind of nice to let them discover for themselves. Well, you know with a little bit of coaching, if I can use that word, as to what the outcome might be by pursuing this particular practice. I was a teacher over the years.
There is a complete difference between learning, practice and training. You know, many years ago, I was so [00:20:05-00:20:07] Well actually it was 1993 and I got a job offer here in Okinawa. And the job offers, if this is interesting, he had been very successful as a land developer. You know, a real estate broker. And he loves Karate. And he had this idea but you know, Karate, which was one arm of budo. The motor [00:20:43-00:20:46] could serve as a, let’s call it as a mechanism and a principle. Mechanism with which empowers people. More importantly, in particular with foreign people and you know, Okinawa has an extremely large foreign presence here and mostly as you know military here. Which would... Since 1945, well, have occupied... I think it's about one third of the island. I could be wrong on that. It’s a very large part. You know that several bases are all over the island. And so, this idea that Karate could serve as a mechanism to bridge the 2 cultures together. You know, the west doesn't understand east’s mind implicitly. And of course, the east doesn’t understand the west’s mind implicitly. You've got the merge and the meeting the two minds: the western mind and the eastern. One is based largely in conformity and groups. What's called the [00:21:59-00:22:00] and the other one is the yardstick. We tend to use it to measure our values, individuality and independence. And they are on both ends of the spectrum with regards to you know being in the [00:22:11-00:22:13].
The idea that, you know, what…. If the fighting arts could be a microcosm. but in fact, what it represents from a cultural point of view is certainly the cultural landscape, the social mind set, etiquette and formalities, even the language. For example, and so they buy a break for a person to come to the country or not necessarily but to embrace this cultural practice in their own culture. Opened a doorway to better understand something about another culture. And in learning more about another culture, you invariably come to learn a little bit more about yourself. And once captured by the essence, if I can use the word “introspection” because you know every pathway irrespective of whether it's classical or contemporary or traditional, you know, has got to condition the body, cultivate the mine. The only other thing that I find the most of the world argues over is the functionality of the practices. You know, and so you know, I guess you already look into my passes. We just started out in Judo and wanted to Karate. You have this passion and love affair with Japanese culture. This whole idea about where your mindset is, you know, certainly later one of my favorite cultural [00:23:56-00:24-08] hero with 1000 faces but you know, you get a guy like just what the hell is he doing, a guy named George Lucas at Skywalker ranch. Brainstorm, you know, how they would portray. And after, you're in a movie called Star Wars and Darth Vader would take on the characteristics of a samurai because Joseph Campbell imparted an important lesson to George Lucas. I know a lot of people don't know that. They're here about stuff like that. But he once again ventured outside in my comfort zone. You know, I started to realize one, little bit more to learn not just kicking and there's a wonderful World in Japanese called Kotowaza. It was called and means proverbs or old saying. There's go on Kyokushin could usually mean... Basically it just means if you take the time to investigate, study, explore values which the pastor of the old or basically the origins of something. You can better understand why and how it is the way it is today. And particularly with regards to which forces would lead the direction with regards to understanding where it's going to go. And so, this idea of looking at the historical evolution of a particular practice which certainly brings you into contact with this dynamic and understanding you know why it is, what it is and why is there another way.
And so, anyway, you know, just a quick, John Lewis for a second you start out in judo. Accidentally, fell into karate though during the 1960s. And then of course, you're the Bruce Lee craze. Everybody jumped on the bandwagon and that would be [00:25:52-00:26:03] Richard Chamberlain in the, you know, the show, the television show, the television series [00:26:06-00:26:12] “Ohayō Gozaimasu”. You're going to learn a little bit of Japanese. And then of course you know that was the big Jiu Jitsu train and you know, growing up in Canada, wonderful opportunity to meet Professor Wally Jay. And you know, go on. Jiu jitsu rolled in. And then you know in high school, I was passionate about, you know, freestyle wrestling, boxing and kickboxing. And had a, you know, an early mentor of mine in Toronto. [00:26:47-00:26:50] Canada on the map of kickboxing. Back after Mike Anderson's first [00:26:54-00:26:55] even in September ‘74. When you get guys like Joe Louis, Bill Wallace and Manny and all those guys get, you know, became the sole World Championship and then you know, finding myself in Japan in the mid 1980s. [00:27:17-00:27:20] no job and you know, no possibility of getting work. I don’t know what I’m going to do. Somebody gave me this opportunity to give me a demonstration in a place called St Mary's college, a school in Tokyo. I did the demonstration and this guy came up to me “hey, man” he said. I was like “who are you?” [00:27:47-00:27:49] I went “all right, thank you very much. I have more”. “Do you like fighting?” I was like “yeah, certainly” not enough. I mean a retired... looking for a job. If it's money you need, I had you know... I'm involved with this fight tour. If you will... It starts, you know, in Hokkaido, you know we're down in Kyushu. We travel around the country. Study the cards. It's just a small team of us guys and it will take on all kinds of different you know all of comer... The pay money was minimum 300,000 yen per site. I know there's 100000 yen which was approximately $15,000. So, if I was getting 300,000, do the math. That's why I said. I'm in. You said, you know, win or lose we are still fighters. I didn't ask what the rules were. I didn't really care about what that's like. That's a whole month's salary. Right? I said “you know, I used to work at the door of clubs. No clubs are very nice. Local clubs are light dumpsters with water you know. All bikers and stuff like that but I mean you know I was getting 20 Bucks and I don't like to drink. All the fights you can get in all the telephone numbers you could pick up. You know, so for $5000, I didn't care. Anyway, the guy's name was Jean and he was the vice president of Marvel comics. Comic books in Japan are phenomenal by the way. In those days, weekly medical... What was the size of the little yellow page that...? You know, remember that telephone books? A big thick telephone books back in the day.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Paul McCarthy:
Try to teach your kids what that means by the way these days. And that they were using that weekly in those you know all kinds of different sections and there was... You know, about everything you could possibly imagine. Where do things and that... By the way Jean was also the cofounder of... Now, you're going to have to help. You know, who's the guy who did all the Marvel comic books? He just passed away. Stanley. He and Stanley were best of friends. And, in fact [00:30:15-00:30:20].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I love it.
Paul McCarthy:
Good Japanese are just doing a documentary right now on Jean about his untold story in Marvel Comics by the way. And his development of spider man and stuff like that. But, that's a different story. Jean and his amigos were okay. He says, “You know, here's the address. We’re done at this gym. You only got a week before the fight and they got to get in shape. And, you know in shape”. it was not always… It's a bit different. The rules are a bit different. Okay. I sure would displace and the guy's name [00:30:56-00:30:58] was his name. It's just a little guy, pretty solid but kind of a little guy and I went “okay, nice to meet you [00:31:05-00:31:20] they had no gear on. And I got kind of leotard pants and they were beating each other. I was like what the hell is this? [00:31:33-00:31:36] like street fighting. [00:31:41-00:31:44] I couldn't understand what Shuto is. What the hell is Shuto, you know. [00:31:48-00:31:50]. I just had coffee with them a couple months ago. I’m still involved with them by the way. And born in Japan. Mother’s Japanese, Father’s American. So, he's perfectly bilingual. He says “in the Japanese, I have difficulties pronouncing ours and elves and I, N, G”. What he means to say is shooting. You know, in Japanese a ‘shoot’ means a throw in on. What the hell are they doing here? He always says I used to be a Muay Thai fighter and a professional wrestler. And you know, we had some problems with boxes… So, he decided to create his own concept providing [00:32:39-00:32:41] well, let's give it a go. My mind was so focused on the money. And I said okay. Anyway, to cut the long story short. I get in the ring and I get that he beat shit out of me. You know and I really honestly.... you know, I just like I never [00:33:03-00:33:04] before even as a kickboxer. [00:33:07-00:33:08] North American stuff. Will never... Any leg kicks back in the 70s or early 80s. So, unless you're fighting the international side. Which I never did. So, I didn't know how to check a thigh kick. And this first guy thought, just as soon as he realized, that I didn't have a check on a thigh kick. Bang me for 5 times and then, you know, by the time I was a little bit, you know, my legs got a little bit sensitive. I made those stupid mistake and kind of putting my arm down the block to kick. And he came up high with the kick and slam in the face. I was, you know, counting how many loops around Jupiter, there, he shot in them and did a double leg takedown, mounted me and some of it basically. And I've never forgotten that. So, I was kind of what the hell was that. When am I going to get my money? So, what he did, because it just opened up the door for me to enter through learning something new that I had. And okay, we didn't stay long when the sign was placed because he really was really messed up this week. And the group of the guys left and will perform. One of the guy's names was [00:34:25-00:34:29] call shoot boxing. I tried that too. You know, it's very difficult to grapple with boxing gloves on. Your leotard pants.
So, I did a couple of those fights and then one of the [00:34:43-00:34:45] he broke away and he formed a group called Rings. And that group that I went with [00:34:50-00:34:53] And they formed a group called the UFI. The United Federation of Wrestlers International. And so, there I was. I was not becoming a shoot boxer and professional wrestler. I probably learned more about Karate with these guys who will do nothing but Karate. Then I did for many concrete structures. Because one of the things that seem to be lacking most in karate training and don't get me wrong. I mean, I came up under the auspices of pretty tough guys. You know, strong fighters. But as a rule, generally speaking from a functional point of view. Karate and I push my mind wander back to the very early 70s. 7,1,2, 3 around there. Bruce Lee's claims of you know, bridges of class lessons. Overly ritualized dysfunctional practices. When you get hurt in a real fight and that. So, with that kind of echoing in the background. I always, you know, ride this wonderfully passionate love affair going on in Japanese culture. The simplicity of it. The warrior minds. The only problem was the training didn't fit. The function you know and you look at some of these classical demonstrations and I knew, you know a case in point was there every year in Tokyo. There's this long calendar of different classical martial art demonstrations that you will see at the [00:36:38-00:36:41]. One day I was sitting in the boot camp and actually demonstrating my own group. I used to practice sorcery ship as well. But our group is going to be demonstrated. It’s all day long. Sitting up in the audience, my wife. And will have a little snack while watching the demonstrations and this could be a sign like oh, my god. [00:37:08-00:36:13] see that little guy. When all those guys... He just held on with one finger”. And I said, “yeah, well”. “Are you clapping for the guy who did all that? All the attackers who attacked them with a technique that was supposed to”. “What do you know?”, “I mean that it would be attackers coming in with a pretty ordnance technique. It is meant to really hit him in the first place. And, you know, he's going to do this and this and look around at all the kicks. it's all a pre-demonstration”. “No, no. that's real”. “Well, good.” It's interesting.
We have been doing martial arts since childhood. You got a little bit different from what is prescribed and what freestyle you know. And anything but usually we start messy and not typically nice to look at all. And I said sure. You know, I'm not sure. No, no, no, no. And I could not convince the girl that it wasn’t prescribed. That is a very wide spread of the classical martial arts. Exactly which we were talking about. That's great, you know, when you embrace the arts culture as a cultural recreation. And let's say, your pathway for enjoying the journey because as I said earlier, you want to do what you want. Something that's going to help, keep you healthy all your life, something that you know keeps the weeds from growing in your brain and neural something that puts you in touch with something. That's not easily understood, we understood something spiritual. Not religious or not attaching politics. So, there's something greater than yourself in the world. You know and that's an absolute necessity. Doesn't matter what you practice. I mean if you practice it for life. You know you're not training some type of activity. So, you know by the time you're in your mid-twenties, you're burned out. You know, some high intensity type stocks. And so, the only one thing that's missing I thought was just a practice that links unprescribed, unpredictable actions as well physical violence into being able to receive that, to embrace that. The attack and be able to effectively negotiate your respect for what it was. Yeah. The beauty about being around these guys and by the way our group when we changed our name from UNFI [00:40:00-00:40:03] lots of forest in Japan to fight. There are all kinds, there's lots of history about that now. How to reach...
Jeremy Lesniak:
The famous group?
Patrick McCarthy:
We brought a lot of guys over to fight and found their own way through shoot fighting, professional wrestling. You know, although [00:40:26-00:40:28] agree with this because it's not supporting his business. But well, long before the U. S. came up with that with Octagon… Sorry, I was choking. In a movie called the Octagon with Chuck Norris. A year long before the UFC came to me, there was a whole group of warriors battling... should be more recognized as being the fathers of MMA. I mean that argument to go back to enter the dragon or you could go even back further to, you know, we had that guys like [00:41:12-00:41:15] in Japan back in the 50s. Remember or have you heard back in the 50s. You know boxing was rivaled by professional wrestling. And a lot of people who look at professional wrestling today, they kind of sure, you know, who are advocates of MMA [00:41:38-00:41:41]. There’s no rules and regulations. That’s really fighting. They look back at professional wrestling. [00:41:49-00:41:52] but what they don't know is that back in the early days, you know this kind of catch wrestling mentality which is very old. And you’re back during the days of the steam ships where ships are, engine by steam. Started leaking foreign cultures together. 8 different classes on board. [00:42:18-00:42:20] You always have a strong mind. The woman with the beard and if anybody could drop this wrestler or destroy this fighter, they got $5 or a nickel. And that wrestling was a very, very popular thing. You know, I was teaching. I taught for one year. [00:42:41-00:42:44] in one year. In the hotel that I was staying at, there were a vast number of famous wrestlers. Oh, god. Look at this guy. His name is [00:42:52-00:42:54]. He was a massive guy. [00:43:06-00:43:09] 5000 boats.
Well, you know, I started looking into history. I'll make this point in a minute but all the strangulation, grappling, growl. Anything that you can possibly think of has already been done long before by these guys. And all of this ancient practice at one time used to be featured on steam ships traveling from one culture to another. And you know, some of these guys are [00:43:37-00:43:41] they are famous. There’s a very small Japanese guy and you know has a big strong force that will conduct the strong to the mat. There’s a jiu jitsu referee. They will find themselves on the back. I can open his new love affair with that with the up close and hands on application practices. And sometimes in the heat, as I said, we kind of... And the gym was called the dojo school. [00:44:19-00:44-20] in Tokyo and that which still exists today but was actually run by one of our former seniors there. His name is [00:44:28-00:44:29]. Now, they know nothing across. You know, my whole life I was doing all this other stuff. Just for the money and for the thrill, excitement and challenge. [00:44:44-00:44-46] And the funny part about it was that, you know, they would do the road work in the morning and they'll come back and have a big... It was like they were aborigines from the jungles of Southeast Asia. or they'll come home. have this big huge metal pot. They were throwing all these fresh chickens and some veggies and we know, they would all eat all of it at night. Looks like a sumo table. You know that there was weight training in there, stretching, the words are rolling in. And that was the bag impact across the back practice and then at the odd time at night, I see them up in the ring. And they may be going through just movements. And I was saying, in Japanese I say, [00:45:29-00:45:34]. Oh, hey, wow. You guys are doing Kata, is that a Kata you’re doing? And their response would be [00:45:43-00:45:45]. I’m sorry, what do you mean what’s a Kata? I’m like what? Those moves you’re doing. That looks like a Kata from Karate Kata and then he went, they said “no, no. I’m just rehearsing my escapes and my counters”. And, I tell you, right at that moment, I just had this, you know, you call it an epiphany. I call it a [00:46:10-00:46:14]. No, it can’t be that simple. Now, I’m going to take you back to our conversation. I oversee an organization and for worldwide, 35 countries. And you know, we have classical and contemporary. And we have a kind of an older version of [00:46:34-00:46:37]. Jiu jitsu practice, karate practice as well. So, a lot of, not a lot, it's just some parts of our group. They don't do the classical stuff. They like the Jiu jitsu part of what we do. [00:46:56-00:46:58]. And they like the part of what we do in the sword school. [00:47:03-00:47:08]. But I must tell you real people out there get upset with me. And so, my guys will take some of that and say this stick or cane from the sword and they like it with the stand up, the claims you made with the round part of Jiu jitsu. And they just kind of wear the shorts and a rash guard. So, right one of my main schools in Brisbane had 2 different training parts and often to get the one training, you kind of walk through the other training part. So, the guys who do like the modern type. Let's call them MMA [00:47:48-00:47:50] would walk through the dojo.
They say see some of her contact information, one of us, well, you're probably doing real stuff. I'd say, yeah, you're all not sure about that. When I would go to teach seminars and many people who I can teach. Well, we're exclusively bringing before contact. There's this in a variable sense of belonging and ownership. If I practice that particular school or style or methodology, and of course it must be the best. Right? And others have an inalienable right to believe that this is the best. You know, because it was something that was better you probably will do that right. I would say, you know look, I'm not that particular style. [00:48:45-00:48:47]. I'm not in those styles. I'd like you to imagine for a moment. You know, if we can take a little walk back through the street. You know, let's start with your tenants to Christmas Carol. I'm the ghost of Christmas past. And I'm taking you through to show you the past. And you know, 50 or 75 years ago, you might only have one or two styles of Karate. And then, a hundred years ago, you had no styles of Karate. And then a hundred and fifty years ago, you know, all you had was you know garrisons or places with which to learn how to be functionally affecting either on the battlefield or in the arena or just in life itself. You know. And, if you had... I don't know if someone was in charge of mentoring another person to be [00:49:35-00:49:36] in self-defense but didn't know how to fight on the ground or fully dressed or how to, you know, protect themselves against [00:49:46-00:49:47] or being cleansed or fighting in the telephone booth or in a bar or something like that. Then that would be the weakest link on the chain. And so, I would say look, by virtue of the fact. And we're talking about self-defense now. We're not talking about it. You know, in the cage or in the ring or the arena or the battlefield. You know, we're talking about self-defense where so many can go on. “Hey b*tch, you want to f*cking dance with me? “. And so, it’s not that, it’s not that physical confrontation where the threat is issued first. And then the decision is made to enter into mutual competition. We're talking about that self-defense. I got a bag of groceries in my hand. I just pop the hood of my car and put them in, in order to make room in the backseat for my passenger. There's no decision to be made. I need to be able to defend myself. You know this mentality with them structurally works that you need to learn how to fight everywhere. And everybody can learn how to punch and kick or escape from a guard or a man or something like that. When the weather's nice, there’s no problem to do that.
You know, I'm often reminded of Mike Tyson's quote “you know everybody's got a plan. nevertheless talk. And so, the idea that by virtue of what can go wrong. We need to use those guidelines to create what you will do when something is wrong. I use the term [00:51:19-00:51:20]. You know, there's only one way to handle something that you don't understand and that is by exploring and evaluating what its dynamics are. When I mean I don't understand, let’s say you came from taekwondo, which is kind of a competitive sport style. I'm sorry. I don't know if it just looks more like a dance these days. I think the last time I watched was the immigration guy. The Cuban guy kept on getting cheated so bad. [00:51:54-00:51:57]. Well, that’s the best kick I’ve seen my whole life. Taekwondo has a rule. You have a particular set of practices, your rules and regulations. How you train. You can’t punch, you can't punch forward. You have to kick the side, kick the head. So, that kind of dictates the training that you would use. It was to win the contest and speak for myself. And say it from the self-defense point of view. [00:51:28-00:52:36]. I'm asking you what method do you have which is traditionally imparted in your school to negotiate. You know, have your garment and somebody else is trying to kick just in case. Or somebody just dances behind. Would you explain to me next why we don't do that? As well if you don't do that and you are learning or in part information for the purpose of self-defense. You may explore the value. You know, you might want to come outside [00:53:10-00:52:11]. And of course, your tradition. Sadly, it shackles them during a certain set of skills and they can't or they won't go outside. My theory was to look at... I'm a great student of history. I mentioned earlier a metaphor [00:53:31-00:53:33] the past to better understand your progress with regards to the future.
There's another kind [00:53:37-00:53:46] In English, it's kind of like saying the pen and the sword. You know the pen was sort of in constant work. While long, long, long, time ago, you know many, many generations of all the people who pioneered this kind of Eastern-Asian mentality regarding the warrior ship [00:54:10-54:12]. Kind of believe this... you know, warriors who are our job is to kill people. That's your job. You know, it might be under the banner of protecting the kingdom or whatever but you're a trained killer basically. You know rules to fight. You know the body of, let’s say, moral philosophy to protect or serve to remind you how to deal with normal people and behave in a normal daily life. You’re kind of a dangerous person. You know and people who spend so much time in the constant mindset of brutality. They don't think or act. Let's call them normal people in society, if people are not warriors. And so, this idea of blending, the inward journey to explore values that your inner self and to come into contact with other practices which help balance the physicality of brutal practices that you were embracing became part and parcel of becoming a warrior. And some of that was the worst painting or poetry you work or you know any type of scholastic pursuits, history, philosophy, spiritual, biological… An area that would help balance your mind with your body and then. So, this [00:55:43-00:55:44] mentality kind of... Which is a very, very important part of Eastern pursuit of the warrior practices. I'm not referring to a particular style. I always think styles usually have become individuals who have been successful on the battlefield in fighting some particular way. Then formulated a pathway with which to embrace what they believe or functional practices. And he was a body of learning that you could embrace. You know let's say from the womb to the tomb. You know, from your mentor. And then at some point on that journey, you decided that you didn't need to mentor anymore. And then you either went away on a journey or you gave back to the community. [00:56:44-00:56:46] warriors' journey. And we are like... you're just a person and one day, they call it the weakling in sociology. How you wake up and realize or maybe you don't wake up, you know, but you're suffering from these symptoms of insecurity. All the things that drive us to the better route to learn about identity. Struggle who we are, where we are going. Or you have a mentor who shows how to do that. [00:557:12-00:57:14] you could use this moment in time where you decide. That’s who I want to be. And as long as there has been that portion in life, there's always the need for mechanism. We'll show you how to get there. So, to speak. And so, this journey is about discovery. Wake up and discover. And then, finding the... I'm seeking or traveling over mountains and across rivers and until I come into contact with the master and guide me. Whether there’s a little guy on the mountain. [00:57:50-00:57:52] there's not a struggle about overcoming all the adversity because that's what that was about. Adversity itself becomes the teacher. And I used to read minds in my domain. Let's call it my domain who knows who falls under my influence. I try to restore this message perhaps in different ways to get it. Although the way I might teach your child is not whether my teacher is a female, an athlete, a challenge learner, or an old person. I mean the goals of the outcomes never changed the process and the process never changed as well.
The way with which to park that 2 different audiences has to change. Learning how to overcome a barrier whether you go through or run around or wait until the barrier walls go away. That requires learning. And then of course by the time you can or you can clearly see that there is the empowerment waiting to be held, and you become empowered by that, then the finality of portion of the pathway of this journey is not really a destination at all. If you realize, this is just the journey. And so, then your goal becomes one of them imparting this message is a timeless message of love and respect to those who have lesser knowledge or you are seeking a way. And that becomes the pathway. So, my study of history, how long this fascinating life that I've enjoyed. It's not a weakness, so fast. You know, there's not a lot of adversity. Has tapped me those things and what I try to do. And when I part the lessons, it doesn't matter because you can be better athletes or a challenge learner or with mental or physical limitations of some type. There are all these warriors inside each of us. And how we choose to not necessarily attain the goal. You know, it's the pursuit. [01:00:21-01:00:22] requires the words of this because learning is what empowers you. Because, you know, show me a child with a passion for anything and I'll show you a stairway to success. What's the expression of the opposites of the contrary? I don't mind if this is able to workshop. You know, anything particularly with regards to the youth of today. There's a burning need for them to find their own ways and how to be compassionate about something, doesn't matter if it's [01:01:03-01:01:04] for God’s sake. You know, but something to occupy the mind and to set goals. So, that they can... That's the goal, that's the outcome and once you realize it’s not the outcome, the only other thing you need to learn is what is the game plan, what is the strategy for getting from here to success or even if it's just a mindset how do I create that? Where's the lesson planning? How am I going to assess the criteria for accomplishing whether it's a 3 round, 3-5 in a round [01:01:34-01:01:36] or it's a marathon or it's a hundred-kilometer walking race or it's just dealing with my family or a loved one, overcoming a death in the family or you know buying to sell real estate or whatever. Whatever the challenge happens, you know, there's always the need for the mechanism to empower you to be able to accomplish that. And I think as long as there's that struggle for [01:02:05-01:02:06] there's always going to need a mechanism. And that takes me back in the very beginning of the question, who are you?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes.
Paul Mccarthy:
This fighting art is just simply a brilliant pathway. There's a great Chinese metaphor that you must know. You know what in Chinese culture, a mountain was always considered the [01:02:27-01:02:9]. It is a challenge and it's an arduous pathway. There're many pathways that lead up the mountain but there's only one move to be seen whether those who breach the summit. And so, lots of pathways in life, if we just go back to the fighting arts, there are lots of pathways you know, Aikido, Kendo, Judo, [01:02:50-01:02:58] MMA, SLD. I go crazy here. You know, there's lots of things that you can do. And I think it always helps if there's a clear goal in mind or even if there's not a, let’s say, like an end goal that you're aiming for but there should be at least some superficial goals. I'm going to get it; I'm going to lose 10 pounds again and I’m going to gain 10 kilograms of muscle. I'm getting ready to race if I’m calling it a race or a marathon. What are some types of physical or emotional goals? You can get 7 out of the way. The other thing that I find that is interesting is today when I speak to folks. Speaking to members last pandemic. [01:03:53-01:03:57] not so much on functionality. So, let me just end this little intro part with something that I came up with. From all my studies that makes sense to me that it's very, very cloudy to me when I was sleeping. The funny part about it was some guy asked me “how did you come up with this many? Isn’t it great?”. I was like “no, it’s just something I dreamt up”. I make light of a joke about it really was. I was really dreaming about it. Of course, I was in a lot of practice and researching some of the studies. So, my mind was so strange at that time. So, it's not surprising that I was dreaming about it as well but I thought... You know, going back to say, for example, empty handed, one against one confrontation. And it's unpredictable and nothing’s “okay, I’m going to work on punch first [01:05:04-01:05:07] it's not that. It's random. It's not scripted. It's how you deal with that. Well, I thought to myself, there's a great expression that goes something like it's the sum total of these individual parts. Don't think that its individual parts but think of the sum total of the individual parts. I told you about that. You know, my pride got [01:05:36-01:05:38] up in the ring, moving around early in the evening. At the end of their day, rehearsing how to receive certain types of impact and if they were clinched a how to effectively negotiate. [01:05:55-01:06:01] I thought, if that rehearsal is a solo reenactment of how one affects the flea negotiates and physical violence which is quantifiable. Then in principle, should the other acts of physical violence which are habitual. [01:06:29-01:06:33] It doesn't matter if it was 500 years ago in the shaolin temple. 2000 years ago, on the battlefield or yesterday in Rutland Vermont. If someone puts a joke, I mean there's only certain [01:06:46-01:06:47] people.
You know what you do with your bare hands with one hand. [01:06:53-01:06:56]. There's only so many ways and I can either deprive air through your larynx going to your lungs. Or I can deprive the blood to throw flowing through the carotid artery. Right. One of the other words is a combination of both. So, by understanding the principle. Yeah, I'll just use this one. And you can make deductions on the abstract based on that. Okay. [01:07:25-01:07:30]. So, by understanding one of these acts of physical violence but let's just say it is manual strangulation which is very common. If you study the [01:07:43-01:07:44] as I do about this active physical violence. It's a silly thing and, you know, in self-defense, it’s one of the easiest ways to defend yourself. How many victims and how many fatalities are there every year around the world. [01:08:01-01:08:03] that said. You're knocked off the ground. Your days, some beast, some [01:08:04-01:08:05] jumped on top of me and then strangled me to death. You could be a woman, a girl, an old person, a big strong guy [01:08:24-01:08:25]. And often, I noticed in the schools the behavior that's associated with the brutality that we see in real stuff. It's never in the dojo. It's like I don't see any, “f*ck you”. Sorry about my language. They don’t see embraced biological sense in the school. Now why do this in reverse and watch this ridiculous thing. Right. So, you understand first by learning why that act of physical violence is dangerous. You understand and I'm not saying that everybody has to do this but if you are challenged or tasked or instructed or some responsible [01:09:10-01:09:11] self-defense by virtue of it. How can you need... there should be some things that should not be a [01:09:19-01:09:20] better know what you're talking about?
You know, let's say, I would say I know everything there is to know about a 2 handed manual strangulation. I understand why the contraction of the fingers and muscle in my inability to be [01:09:37-01:09:39] ground and both my hands are free. So, let's explore now the possibilities of defending yourself against that. And so, let's say that the instruction of the teacher mentor says “okay. Well, I'm going to try this, this, this and this and will search for a 4-step plan or 5 or 2 or whatever. Personal, you’re trying to have a [01:10:00-01:10:08] whatever the tactical you’re at it, you’ll go through it. And, you're doing this with passive resistance because right at that stage of learning, that's exactly what you're just learning, what it's all about. You’re becoming familiar with the act of violence. You're becoming gradually exponentially more confident with the way you were applying the skill all the time waiting to meet Sensei Murphy. My students will be like, “Oh, Sensei Murphy!”. He's the guy who teaches you what can go wrong, will go wrong when you don't want to go wrong. That's Sensei Murphy. And, of course Sensei Murphy is there to give you the real lesson because learning the struggles is not [01:10:55-01:11:02]. So, let's say I got a 50 kilogram [01:11:05-01:10:06] and I'm 100 kilograms [01:11:09-01:11:16] that changes the dynamics. So, the variables in the application of practices almost halfway of its size and gender… When I say gender, anybody else will say “oh, he’s sexist. He’s got bias”. I'm not showing the facts. [01:11:37-01:11:47] So, weight, size and gender also have a lot to do with that. And so, how you’re affected and negotiate is by continuing to change your partners and gradually exponentially adding more aggressive resistance to physical violence itself. So, the ultimate objective of that one particular act and all the little variables that may go on in it is not new to you anymore. You've done it so many times with so many different people and under so many different sets of circumstances that it no longer is new to you. You know exactly the pathway with which to follow under all these variables. Now, my point is this if you take that principle to what I just said to every quantifiable act. [01:12:44-01:12:45] I haven't heard from many about Bruce Lee but wanted to make you still out there. [01:12:51-01:12:54].
Let me put it this way. If you want to say [01:12:58-01:13:00] you have brothers. You know something, I don't think much of tertiary education. I'm going to go become a plumber and I work for the rest of my life. You know, good big brain. [01:13:11-01:13:12] I want to pursue a University education. I want to become a teacher or whatever you know. Or be a doctor or a lawyer which we know is one of the classic traditions. So, that person can go through a tertiary level background, some college or university. You know, enter open house day and we can say things like “hey, excuse me. I was thinking of taking engineering, maybe civil or electrical or whatever. You feel like what am I able to do when I get my certificate. What do I have to do to be a master of this or what? First, you have to get your bachelor's degree first. Then, next is Master’s which lasts up to 2 year. And you have to be excellent in subjects and every semester you have the subject loaded. Well, let's say design engineering 103, semester 2 weeks 5 days. What are we going to study starting from what? Just hang on for sec. Let me open up a module descriptor. Let me run down [01:14:00-01:10:08] okay got it. You're going to be studying insights, the book and the cites, the lesson. And says this is the assessment criteria. And that's the outcome. and you are like “thank you very much”. I never see that in the fighting arts. I wonder. I'm not trying to be overly academic but I'm thinking if you want to quantify how to master something, should you know about it first? And if that's the case... And then if you guys are talking about those kids that walk through the [01:14:48-01:14:53] the contact training.
Look at a class where I was teaching a personal [01:14:58-01:10:59] and it's a very simple exercise. You're being cleansed, you’re being shut off against a wall, and you're being strangled with one hand as guys are pumping you in the face with his right fist. There’s this tactic where you kind of protect the left side of your face because most people are right hand in most [01:15:16-01:15:17] with the right fist and you know, you want to hang in your [01:15:22-01:15:24]. Because that's the goal, you do whatever you can to latch on with your left arm then he is right-handed. You know, shove his fingers in his eyes. He's got one hand fist left and you’re shoving it into his eyes. There are 2 options. One, to pull the hand and push the hands away. That's called from a chemical and physiological point of view as a pain-withdrawal reflex reaction because you push him on the side [01:15:53-01:15:55] I grab my own fist, so that the attacker is not able to solidify its balance. When I was a kid in high school, [01:16:13-01:16:19] when I wrap my right leg behind his knee and kind of pause and put me in step on my own leg. I basically render this person in mobile so he can't use his mobility to push away. And because the guillotine is causing pain, he starts seeing stars and he doesn't know what to do first and then falls asleep. That is the first opening move. [01:16:45-01:16:46] For example, at the end of the class I went down and said “Hey, if we did this with shorts and a rash guard, you would say [01:16:57-01:16:59]”. But I did with a gear on and I did it in a structured way. It was a big gym class because he was a newbie. I said [01:17:08-01:17:15] freestyle. And he was like “oh, really?” You can show me... I’m such a huge fan of [01:17:21-01:17:27] I know so many students that I met and trained with them. You know, develop friendships over the years. He said “can you explain what you mean?” Well, you know [01:17:40-01:17:49]. And I go, “that's great. I just have one question”. He said “what is it?”. “How did you learn that? like did you get through osmosis or like someone actually showed you that step by step”. “Of course, someone showed me the step [01:17:57-01:18:00]”. “I mean the way you're talking just like it arrives from Mount Sinai on a tablet in your brain. Just woke up and you got it”. You got that because somebody showed you when somebody says you do this first. [01:18:22-01:18:30]. You know what we're talking about is really science and art. Mixed together in a training facility called the Dojo or a gym, whatever you want. To create the magic but I'm talking about. And the coach, the group or whoever. They used a template. They said [01:18:45-01:18:50]. So, you have a formula. A formula is a template. [01:18:59-01:19:00] it's a lot of soul representations against acts of physical violence that are habitual and quantifiable. And you make sure that all healthy classical response systems are the same way [01:19:11-01:9:21] I think that there are the people that kept us alive for all these years. What's happened is you get into a culture, eastern culture, and there's a lot of historical madness that have gone on state from 1840s start with a box of the opium war leading up to the box [01:19:36-01:19:38] Japan's entry to [01:19:42-01:19:43] leading to the occupation of the East with the Japanese. And, you know. a lot of people… What I was talking about, you know, that you should find the arts that are kind of a microcosm of the culture from which they come. They don't fully grasp what they mean by that because anybody who's passionate about looking at history. Technical and tactical ambiguity of our tradition is a kind of stumble over contemporary assumptions understanding the landscape in the mindset of the people who pioneered this tradition. The old joke about tradition is not about ducks blindly following a guy [01:20:21-01:20:22] but it's continuing to seek out what those kinds were themselves seeking in order to every generation [01:20:30-01:20:34] who are in an effort to keep their teachings and living contribution to the communities that they server. Trying to find a reason with which to reinterpret common principles which rest in it. And in doing so, [01:20:47-01:20:49] better than yours is there just developing more innovative ways of doing the very same thing. And getting to the point about this mindset explains very clearly how the classical messed it all up; it was simply like this. Modern Japanese culture is based on a millennium of a male dominated homogenous extremely discriminatory culture and conformity. Each nestled nicely into [01:21:22-01:21:23] confusion-based mindset because first tenet is propriety which is a fancy term for ancestor worship. And being the principal belief in Ancestor worship is that there's no questioning of authority. Well, can you imagine that? So, you can't question everybody who's an authority. And the authority is responsible for parting timeless lessons. But the time was less than has become so overly ritualized and never critically thought off or never questioned. And you think what kind of mechanism could... Because, you know, we in the west that's not who we are. I mean the government; the tax department likes us to be like that but we're not like that. And our best friends, 6 of them begin with the letter W and one begins with the letter H. That’s our friends where individuality is the arts. It measures our character. we need to know everything about everything now. We don’t want to wait until 90 to get all the answers.
And so, the mechanism in the east, I mean Japanese, although existing Chinese as well, in Japanese we call [01:22:35-01:22:38] that’s a system of mentorship. Imitative behavior. The junior always has to do with what the senior says and never ever question it. And so, imitative behavior and that trickledown effect [01:22:54-01:22:55]. I said it out loud, let me edit that. A mindset that doesn't permit questions [01:23:02-01:23:03] and then they're still going to be something else to it. I'm like you asked, here it is. [01:23:08-01:23:10] because those are the wisdom of a lifetime of a person who thought about a certain particular thing until they realize there's no other way. There's more succinct understanding which a straight line is the shortest distance [01:23:22-01:23:23]. And so, you've got this whole mentality behind not to question authority. So, the metaphor Japanese goes like this [01:23:35-01:23:48]. Metaphor goes like this; a protruding nail ultimately gets pounded down. You know what I mean? A nail keeps popping up on our floor board or something. You take a hammer to pound it. [01:24:02-01:24:03] nail doesn't stay down. You do block it out, right? So, the metaphors are in Japanese or Chinese culture. if you. Just shut up and keep training, keep asking questions, they're going to say “hey, shut up. Don't ask questions. the answers to it… Just wait”. [01:24:22-01:24:23]. Well, if you keep getting out of line that someone's going to ostracize you. [01:24:26-01:24:31] and you realize you don't ask questions and get kicked out. That's a... You know, it's funny when I talk to folks. [01:24:36-01:22:38] closer to 70 years old now. You guys have been training as long as I have from the 60s to 90s. Oh my god. Yeah, I remember that. I never got to ask a question in class. I had to do it a certain way. It never really met the criteria for reality but I was told to do it. So, [01:24:58-01:25:01] became the tradition itself. [01:25:05-01:25:07] protocol I do this and find out soon the tradition is so complicated by overly rich allies. Sorry. For rituals that had no specific means. I mean these are not without… But you expect that at the end of the training, you will become functional. The problem was that you weren't becoming functional. You're only repeating something that really was never tested for its adversity. Let me back up a little bit and say Bruce Lee has reached himself in a class and discard what is not useful and use what is functional. So, sure my journey has been one of those. And while on this journey, I discovered it's not my journey. I mean it is my journey but I mean I was coming into contact with [01:26:02-01:26:03]. Wow! I think of that before and have somebody teach that to me and I kind of realized it is because it's become overshadowed by the popularity of its cosmetic appearance. And its appeal to the masses. Which reminds me of a quote that goes something like, you know, “just because everybody's doing it, doesn’t mean it’s right”. So, you find yourself in a position where you're doing it a certain way. You realize it must have always been done this way by people who knew what they were doing because if they didn't know what they were doing, they wouldn’t have last or made a name for that. [01:26:38-01:26:40]. So, when I go back to that, I say that the passionate love affair I had with embracing [01:26:48-01:26:49] as the sole example of, I want to say it, embracing and exploring who we are and what you can do. Became a wonderful form of expression. The fact that it was [01:27:08-01:27:10] very brutal practices in many ways remains a secret to a lot of people. What I mean to say is the guys and the kids who …
By the way, it's funny because the kids, at least given, I've actually been with students for 34 years in which kids come back years later and say, “Oh, Sensei McCarthy. Do you remember me?”. “I know, you’re from dojo” [01:27:32-01:27:34] right. Why not? It's a wonderful practice”. “yeah, no, no, no. [01:27:40-01:27:42] but I just found out that there was something more holistic. It was less demanding on my body and I saw this on the package”. “congratulations!” and I said… What I wanted to say was I was watching a UFC fight. It was Johnny bones Jones and Machida and I said oh, yeah. [01:28:03-01:28:07] it was earlier and he had a block against the cage. And Jones put his hand on the space in which [01:28:14-01:28:15]. Jones got those long arms, elbows, raptors, wrapped the guillotine around and he put a leg lock on him. I'm sorry. [01:28:32-01:28:36] untangle them because Machida went to sleep. And I went okay and your point is yours. Well, don't you remember I came in the dojo one day, I saw you guys do exactly that. I said oh, you know, you told me what a traditional [01:28:50-01:28:51] against us. I saw the MMA guys in general. [01:28:55-01:28:56] You know sometimes necessity is the mother of invention. A lot of these practices are really timeless. They don't belong to style or school. They belong to methodology and survival. And so, I guess in many ways, the mindset of the group of folks that I generally have the pleasure of working with. People who think like that. It's a great feeling of gratitude. I feel when I watch someone who I've been able to plant seeds with. Let them embark upon a journey.
That does the 4 things that it conditions their body and for all of their lives. You just kind of have this condition even from the time you fight. What about when you roll, do you mean you need to stay healthy all your life. If nothing else just for fighting disease. You know, because this is their seed of mental wellbeing. That is also to condition your mind. And certainly, you know, one of the problems structures as we enter our latter years in life is people retiring from that job. You know they become involved with their hobbies and they gradually grow older. They start thinking about doing things and you know because the brain is not active, they grow old and die. And so, keep in mind that is the only important part of the fighting arts. Well, that's also the need to… I’ve mentioned [01:30:42-01:30:43] you know that it's not just the physical part that has to be embraced. [01:30:48-01:30:49] changed to meet these changing changes in your life because change is really the only thing that is truly inevitable. But it is also the intellectual and scholastic part of practices where you're engaged in something whether it's learning to speak about another language. Japanese or Chinese or another language or are you learning how to cook or sculpt. Yeah, you know what? Whatever it is. You just keep busy and then of course this experimental thing. That's a difficult thing for young people, in the spiritual thing. But certainly, the older people get the more valuable looking towards something that's more powerful than your simple little self. [01:31:35-01:31:36] something else to believe in something that you realize. Soon the inevitable and will be here. And we want to look back across your life and you don’t want to look back with regret. What is it you don't regret from the past? You’ll see the future and miss the moment and it's all about right now. What lies behind your [01:31:58-01:32:02] to look at that flash of life thing. Look back and say [01:32:10-01:32:32. ] And I think that's why I keep looking into this the traditional part of what we do. [01:32:21-01:32:27] but I still have that. [01:32:32-01:32:35] to remind myself that you fold preoccupation with fighting. But you're still... The passion is still there. It's just a bundle up in a different way. I spent a lot of my time coming into contact with folks who haven't yet maybe discovered this particular end of it. Another wonderful part is about the people who have already either [01:33:02-01:33:03]. So, either become the student again or I become the colleague or just become their opportunity of becoming a partner with somebody to train. Right. So, I have the learning part. I continue to learn. I have a doctor's part and you still have to practice for it. You have the training part. And the training part in my opinion is the really beautiful part. The science and the art have come together to create the magic and that magic is yours. And I'll just close this, pardon.
There was a traditional karate master named Toyama Kunken. A lot of people don't know who he is, you know, he never reached the heights of popularity [01:33:50-01:33:54] He was nonetheless in my opinion a brilliant innovator and a pioneer. [01:34:00-01:34:09] my styles meet. That's what I do, that's the pathway [01:34:15-01:34:19] I hope if it's nothing else, my lesson serves to inspire you to look beyond that template. And find the way, you know, using the building blocks, using the alphabet. I mean the alphabet’s never going to change the actual physical laws. they don't change. [01:34:38-01:34:39] it's either, you know, there are these 5 things you [01:34:41-01:34:43] there's the screw, the wedge and the pulley. I'm telling you that it doesn't matter what style or tradition comes from. It was empty handed when he got one. It falls into 2 categories [01:34:53-01:34:55] and all the stuff and the drama [01:34:57-01:34:59] all of these things have to do with flexion, extension and if we strangle somebody, [01:35:09-01:35:11] somebody. It's a category one later. You're hyper extending a joint and when you understand how the human body works and you understand that forces mass times acceleration then I’ve gotten hurt, I’ll probably excel enough in the target zone with the right tools to be able to create an [01:35:32-01:35:39] I need to study more about acceleration and mobility which are my styles. [01:35:47-01:35:57] Functionality is at the top of your mandate then you need to learn these common mechanics in supply science because what we're doing is little more than just science. And the art part is what makes it individual. If I have 50 students in class and I said “hey, welcome to art class today.” And these are the inks and pastels and watercolor or oil or whatever it is. That's the canvas, these are the little brushes for eyelashes. There are big brushes for mountains. [01:36:32-01:36:35] the clouds, your texture. Well, paint me a tree. You know 50 different people. I guarantee you're going to get 50 different trees and flowers. You know and that's the beauty of the art is because arts aren’t all the same. Where's the beauty there? Where is the individual there? Not everybody can do the same thing, the same way to achieve the same outcome. And I'm very well known for saying this that a deeper understanding of the same thing [01:37:05-01:37:06] will not be able to do the same thing, the same way to achieve the same outcome across the spectrum of your life. Simply because of the [01:37:17-01:37:16]. The acts of physical violence by which your means would become a tradition, they’re never going to change and that useful brutal behavioral activity that approaches you on 2 legs, “Hey, bitch. You've got to fuck up”. So, I apologize for the language again.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It’s okay.
Paul McCarthy:
It's a part and process of behavioral science and pedagogical look at the brutality that surrounds what it is the differences together. And, I tell you, I don't care what's your [01:37:51-01:37:52], what brings us together is far more important than anything that separates us. But, it’s the veneer of politics, protectionism, insecurity that creates this inability to look at something and see it for what it truly is. [01:38:08-01:38:10]. And that's the business part about... You know…. [01:38:14-01:38:15] Joe Rogan. Joe helps co-commentating the fights. In the early stages, before the last call. Before the naive public knew much about what was going on. [01:36:34-01:38:37] Oh, my god! Look at that BJJ. It’s Jiu jitsu. Awesome. That’s sick, man. As things grew and you know [01:38:49-01:37:53] one as the world began to expand with the MMA concept. We started seeing a lot more [01:39:00-01:39:01]. which really based a lot on catch wrestling. Let’s be honest, okay. If I went to Jiu jitsu school 25/30/30 years or 40 years ago with a pair of shorts and a rash guard and they'd be like “what are you doing here?” I won’t say it’s a bad thing because evolution is just about that, it's about changing. Coming into contact with more innovative ways of doing the very same thing. So, now I don't have a gear on it. It's round 2 and I'm sweating it out. I don't have a [01:39:42-01:39:50] But again that doesn't pay a lot. I was towing the line right because everything's part and parcel of a larger business. If ever I'd read that wrong, I apologize to Mr. Rogan because otherwise I'm a huge fan. And not just the martial arts and podcast community [01:40:12-01:40:15] standup guy. Let’s call it for what it is. It is important and I think that’s the best thing that brings us together is way more important than what separates us and that's one thing about the business part. Business is politics. You know, it's like I have a sandwich shop on Elmo Street and you open a sandwich shop across the street from me. You know, there's going to be a little bit arriving around all night like “Hi, good morning neighbors!”. There's always going to be that I want you to buy your sandwiches in my shop not your shop. So, hence the [01:40:49-01:41:00] You know, my look as an educator, it was a coach or mentor or sensei... I'm not so interested in producing the office kind of world as I am with helping people to embrace life in general. When they get to a certain stage, that was a really wise decision. Really, really super enjoyable. You know, the training, the learning, the practice, the people came into contact with you and then I used a little [01:41:32-01:41:33] group. If like open minded people pursuing common goals and I think that the signs, what that means, can represent everything. And so, it doesn't matter what walk of life you're from, what culture you came from. If the science is the same for acceleration. It's the same for each of the 5-digit machines and show me any technique that will show how to apply students. And I think that the other thing about that as well as when folks grasp that, let's call it the “red pillow kick”. Remember the matrix?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Great movie.
Paul McCarthy:
[01:42:18-01:42:20] So, let's say if you see the matrix of what we're doing, it's the same. There's no difference at all. And where did [01:42:30-01:42:31] appearance, cosmetically rules and regulations, cautious. [01:42:40-01:42:42] So, that then, every time we add a new player to the table or to the game, let’s say. Then it reduces or may enhance but it reduces the fact, once again I'm just saying like let's say, you're 50 kilograms. You get attacked by [01:42:49-01:43:07] down on the ground. Your hands are completely free as you're facing and the guys right in front of you say something and you take your arms and fingers and douse him into his eyes. Trying to put your thumbs into the [01:43:18-01:43:20] at the back of his skull while your head butting his nose and biting the rest of it off. I'm thinking it's probably not that, I don't know, probably he [01:43:29-01:43:40] But it is more or less the reality [01:43:43-01:43:45]. It prevents them from being a statistic or a victim. So, once again. I go back and say, I don't say this is better or worse, I'm just simply saying that as part of self-defense. What was really compelling for me was to better understand how ambiguous [01:44:08-01:44:10]. Why has it lasted so long been embraced as art when nobody knows what it means? Or, worse even still be there it's been embraced [01:44:23-01:44:28]. And then this ridiculously dysfunctional application thinks that it's going to work and I never [01:44:37-01:44:48] In Japanese, [01:44:56-01:44:57]. They have an answer for everything and that. I'm not saying that you have to be Arnold Schwarzenegger to describe, to learn how to body build. You don't have to be Italian to [01:45:16-01:45:23] You know, I don't believe that you have to be… You have to have 60 fights to teach them how to fight. [01:45:28-01:45:30] for example, one more example. I don't think but there has to be a way with which to test the veracity of what you're doing and if you are learning. I believe the [01:45:40-01:44:57] If they listen to this, I hope this sets it or I hope it’s one commonality which one works and perhaps people from any other style can listen to it to find the halfway mark. [01:46:10-01:44:14] McCarthy's our traditional karate guy. I believe that I'm a traditional karate practitioner. Let me tell you this, karate people won’t believe this but I think what I'm doing is [01:46:28-01:46:32] so long but what I do is not karate. And like, okay. It's not right. Let me look back into history far enough back. Good look. The term karate itself became ratified as a Japanese martial art in December of 1933. That's another conversation. Before that, in a couple of decades leading up to that. It was embraced in Okinawa. Jump to exercise, in the school system to serve the war machine during the period of radical military escalation.
So, it's practice was no longer embraced for its function but rather as a mechanism to folks on physical fitness and social conformity. And that's where the problem began. So, when you and of course it is also Karate today. Some of these guys are remarkable. Just do things [01:47:36-01:47:45] So, the coaching skills are much better today but what I'm trying to say is if you look back and look at Kata, matching kicking was to fighting, why the need for Kata in the first place? There's an expression that Kata is Karate. Karate is Kata. And the people doing these overly ritualized techniques that have seemingly no meaning or the meaning that's prescribed for preposterous or incongruous. No connection to reality at all. Let that be an opportunity for a door to open. [01:48:25-01:48:28] is no different from your coach showing you how to smash a granite base with a lead after cut who sort of [01:48:35-01:48:36]. But this is how you have to practice it. Here are the lines in the angles of trajectory. Here's the track just module. Here's how to set it up and you know all that kind of thing. Right? And not everybody can do it. And finding the meaning requires contextual prints. So, my lifetime of study brought me in contact with this. And I refer to it as the [01:49:05-01:49:06] D. H. A. V. E. acts. The habitual acts of physical [01:49:11-01:49:12]. There's a cool person reenactment practice which links together the act of violence with the prescribed template. [01:49:23-01:49:27] might not work if the guy does this. You have a wonderful way of describing the obvious. You know and well, that's why once you learn the templates, you have to practice it with all kinds of different people under varying circumstances. So. that you can be prepared for the unpredictable and random. And it's funny after a few years of practicing this stuff. And that's why I say the joke is not really a joke. The BJJ guys are the best. The wrestlers are the best [01:50:04-01:50:12] You know while you're on the ground rules with somebody, you know, is trying to lock me down. [01:50:20-01:50:27] whether that pain motivates you to experience and allows you to move in the way that you do. [01:50:31-01:50:37]. So, what I'm saying is that the same thing is possible to change. [01:50:44-01:50:45]. And it was once I would practice Okinawa. [01:50:53-01:51:04] was called Luton, one a cinema where the art is not your knower that became known as Okinawans. Are you a little bit like Japanese [01:51:14-01:51:22]? Look at us saying I'm happy so all these **** slap each other pretty strong and hard [01:51:28-01:51:32] the old school which falls into, let’s say, a ritual, a rite of passage for boys forming into men. Became after a while specially pre and post war years. It kind of [01:50:49-01:50:50] boys would, you know, try to grab each other into each other down on the ground. Now that we're in Judo Jack grabbed a belt to do [01:51:59-01:52:04]. Remember the opening fight scene of the dragon with Bruce Lee [01:52:11-01:52:13] had to wear black shorts and the Bruce Lee gloves. [01:52:17-01:52:18] Do you remember how they started the match? That they crossed hands.
Jeremy Lesniak:
[01:52:25-01:52:28]
Paul McCarthy:
[01:52:33-01:52:34] doing cross swords when you fight. You know, the crossing of swords at the beginning of the fight. [01:52:42-01:52:44]. So, the point being if you're standing back and there's space between you and the person in front you in a self-defense situation, the decision doesn't always have to be to engage the person. [01:52:57-01:52:59] ignoring the related distractions. And so, when you crossed hands that's where this… Tapping back and you know that the [01:53:06-01:53:10] those practices which are bread and butter for tracking, checking and impacting each in those arts. Where once also part of Okinawan practice but would have been lost. [01:53:25-01:53:27] it conforms based on culture and the art being embraced for something other than its original functionality. And so, when I go to teach… How far does your broadcast go? But I just want to get a heads up to Sensei Terry O'Neill from Oregon Arts International, probably the best martial art magazine on the planet during its heyday. It's no longer there now and that he was the first person who opened the door for me to do seminars professionally. That opportunity back in 1993 teaching English. Scary moments for me, you know. Yeah, not realizing how these... The way I talk with you about being embraced is because people who know me, it’s either they love me or hate me. There’s nowhere in between because the way I describe tradition is very much challenged to what others believe about tradition. I mean great right? [01:54:35-01:54:44].
I never ever intend to intimidate or embarrass or discredit or disrespect any of those traditional teachers. I found nothing but wonderful people who welcomed me with open arms. And I never question my friends who smoke or drink how they act like being husbands and wives. None of my business really. This is really my only concern ever in the [01:55:18-01:55:20] training and studies and some was functional. what this organization that groups this dojo school group that instructed the coach [01:55:30-01:55:32] was scientifically sound and it didn’t work. [01:55:38-01:55:42] in England it was Lenny McLean. They called on him the Guvnor [01:55:48-01:55:51]. So, we did a lot of ring fights in alleyways [01:56:00-01:56:01] It’s on YouTube. Some of the listeners can go to YouTube and type in Lenny McLean when he was like The Guvnor. I think there's still a couple of fights. There's one that I remember, [01:56:21-01:56:23] when he puts his cigar out, the person gets his gloves on and you know he stepped in the ring. The other guy just finished his glass of cognac. Spit on the side. They come into the center of the ring and the referees are like [01:56:35-01:56:48]. in the face. Let the fight begin! Let me beat those sh*t. [01:56:55-01:56:58] my hero is Lenny McLean. So, I kind of say that as a joke. You know what I mean by the science and the way I speak it's mostly just for the coaches and the trainers. I don't think Lenny McLean probably had… Why would I say that? [01:57:20-01:57:23] smoking barrels.
Jeremy Lesniak:
A long time ago.
Paul McCarthy:
Lenny McLean played the role of the collectors with the debt collector. The boss and the guys have been going back to him but which is probably much of his real life anyway. But I'm not trying to say that you've got to be intellectually brilliant. That's far from the case. Most guys were really great fighters and never had a lesson in their life. You know they're not terrible. They’re not on the higher level of actual skill. I don't say that… I'm just saying that it is what it is. When I teach a lot in Europe and especially in Ireland, they call travelers over there but they're gypsies. And these guys are old and they write for money in exchange for honor and pride [01:58:17-01:58:19.] These guys will study. Check your left hand [01:56:21-01:56:23] hear what you do in the case of being clinched. They just fight. But, looking at it from this former art and then trying to wrap it up into a tradition to pass on this body of principles to other folks. And this is the so-called like-mindedness. Some people who are attracted to these common practices. [01:58:56-01:58:58] you know that they have to condition the body, mind and spirit and it's all done through us set up a 2-person practice which leads to functionality. And, as I said before you know the acts of physical violence or habitual or nature are quantifiable. They're easy to bend to study and understand them to learn the 2-person drill. Which is a lengthy process. [01:59:26-01:59:27] on the media process. It can be like it was something like how long would it take for your child to learn to ride a bicycle. Who knows? Maybe they need to be on a tricycle first or maybe they need a bicycle with training wheels and will help a little elbow pad. And you know, you need to use empowering language with them. You're doing very well but maybe the other kid next door just jumps on the back and they can do it right away. So, the learning curve is different for everybody. As long as its pathways are intact, it ensures that it is healthy [01:59:58-02:00:01]. And then in the end, you can take all of those template-based practices and you can link them together into some type of geometry that produces something greater than the sum total of these individual parts. And therein lies the mystery of Kata. And so, it becomes a wonderful mechanism of practice. [02:00:34-02:00:35] learned it. I practice it and make it perfect. So, to speak, that's the way of process. And then once I've mastered that skill I cannot train. And so, the form of Kata [02:00:51-02:00:53] whatever language you want.
All of the tradition becomes a fascinating mechanism of exploration, and you know how you do it when you're younger. At the apex of visible progress. It won’t be the same way when you'd do it in my age with more physical challenges or whatever. But, it's still because it still remains a wonderful practice. It’s a practice where you can have a spectrum of life. The apex of our practices is something called [02:01:29-02:01:31] means you know taking all these templates across the years and putting them into Bruce Lee’s crossing hands. And then you know because [02:01:41-02:01:43] each other or trying to hit each other nearby. Grabbing some hair, pulling the garment on their head or whatever you want to do. But there's a healthy respect between each person and it would be no different from each other. It will be no different from, let's say, you're leading up... Your fights in April. And it's now mid-February. So, you got 7 weeks left. So, in the past several weeks you're doing your load works, you're stretching, you’re eating a certain diet, you're listening or watching films. You're doing it [02:02:18-02:02:24] share with each other. You are embracing each other with a certain degree of resistance. And shortly. I got an open shot at the bottom of the face. I don't do that. And so, the argument to the critics, well, it's not real. It's never real [02:02:48-02:02:56]. I was in the ages of lots of fighting. And the real truth is sometimes the real fight we're pretty simple stuff. Other times brutally messy and never pretty. [02:03:11-02:03:13] that's entirely possible but as a rule. I got guys, they're older than I am. That’s the person’s engaging style and some of them say “the legs and the knees and hips don't work as well as they do but I'm pretty good at you know checking an impact and capturing somebody and [02:03:49-02:03:54]” I also loved western [02:03:58-02:04:04]. Well, we use hand and a half single hand [02:04:07-02:04:08] sword. There's lots of tools that we use but the idea is that you're asking for. And what you will do. Let's say, engage with somebody. You want to go back to work until 5 minutes. Before the fight [02:04:21-02:04:21]. And trying to hit them. You know maybe not with full force or something like that. That’s a lot of work to try. [02:04:32-02:04:33] crossing hands with somebody going through [02:04:35-02:03:40]. The guy’s not wanting to go to the ground, breaking free and kicking it. it's a great practice. It's something that can be done in the same principal theory [02:04:49-02:05:50] and Those are traditional Karate folks with whom I have the pleasure of working with.
We really come to enjoy the action. I don’t know how to say this. Back in the 90s... I'm sorry. This is really interesting. So, back in the 90s, [02:05:16-02:05:18] I got a lot of [02:05:19-02:05:20] so, who would have known my whole career on traveling the world, teaching seminars and that's in fact what happened. You know, I was turning jobs because I was so busy all the time. And, there was a time I had [02:05:37-02:03:41]. And then after a while, you start targeting different groups and everybody wants and that's how the organization is formed in the first place. That was the only group on the internet in those days was a group called Cyber Dojo. [02:06:01-02:06:02]. American guy named Bob Howard. I'll just cut to the chase. [02:06:08-02:06:10] introduce yourself and say who you are. Maybe, what you’ve done. And a dialogue you can start with. Great. I mean the classical mistake of not reading first and getting the feel [02:06:29-02:06:32] not knowing both sides and I went on and at the time I was [02:06:36-02:06:38] teacher’s license. “Hi! My name's Patrick McCarthy. I live here in Japan around 40-45 years old or something like that or whatever. And now, I have a certain degree black belt in this and I'm a licensed swords teacher and a licensed Jiu jitsu teacher. I got a box to the key and t high school collegiate wrestler. [02:07:01-02:07:02] and I won all the championships. and I wrote these books and I have been in a magazine”. Okay, that's about it. I think you're going to get it right, she posted it just 5 minutes later. [02:07:12-02:07:25] Hi, I'm Bob. I'm from Iowa. Nice to meet you”. Okay, I think that might've been a little bit too much, too much of me there. [02:07:38-02:07:39]. I'm really sorry I just assume that my job, I have a research organization. I'm happy to help others who are interested in particular things. I was getting it from every angle, man. I thought that somebody was given a prize for how much they could attack me and the joke was according to iron main gear. [02:08:06-02:08:09] could walk on water because you couldn't swim. Well, here's the joke in my group these days. So, for all those guys old enough to remember and remember today. Those guys who criticize me that's not karate, there's no such thing, 2 person floaters, also lots of jokes. He made them up themselves and they are now being congratulated for teaching what they criticized me for.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That’s got to feel good.
Paul McCarthy:
As I say, there's a joke. It is a joke whenever we have a world gathering and invariably somebody will bring this up. [02:08:54-02:08:56] you know where they are online. Do we remember exact drills? Don't get me started… How long are we talking? Holy smokes. I just looked at that. That’s 2 hours.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I was wondering here if we’re going for the title.
Paul McCarthy:
Oh, my god. I'm so sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why? Why are you apologizing?
Paul McCarthy:
[02:09:20-02:09:25]
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, this is my job. My job is to keep you talking. It was really easy.
Paul McCarthy:
Well, but I'm just going to say it’s anonymous. [02:09:34-02:09:38] I'm just looking at that. As I'm looking at the screen, I can see that there's me on the cover of a master's magazine there. Okay. as my little icon. So, I've been staring at it as I talk to you and it just reminds me about the first time, I worked with this gentleman whose name is [02:09:58-02:10:00]. He owns a mystery magazine and a big TV company. And a wonderful person by the way. He makes great magazines and great DVDs and he said, everybody who's anybody knows your show, [02:10:21-02:10:23] are very, not nervous or embarrassed, what's the word…I just thought a little bit. [02:10:27-02:10:28]. I guess being in the studio for the first time knowing that the couple of weeks before that there was like Bruce Lee's [02:10:36-02:10:43]. All these rich famous people were there and then I was like “Jesus Christ”. I hope I won’t blow this opportunity. Then he goes “well, Patrick we're going to do some photoshoot. We're going to just sit there and watch the cameras going to be here but this is 3 camera shoots. So, if I point there right there, we'll just look over as if you were thinking about something and talking. And then if you see the red light one, just.... Are you okay with that? “Okay, I'll try it. What’s the first I am going to shoot?”. He goes, we're going to talk about this [02:11:25-02:11:26] which was great because that's one of my favorite subjects. About how Karate [02:11:33-02:11:34]. Okay. So, I'm going to start out. I'm just going to ask you the question. You just naturally talk, when I start, I'll just say “hey, wait for a second and I’ll say stuff. [02:11:49-02:11:50] take a breath and then ask the second question, are we good? And I went, “yeah, yeah. I'm good.” “Okay” and then he says, “so we shot a few stills” and I said “you should [02:12:01-02:12:07]”. So, I had my friend there. My friend was back in you know doing stuff like this and stuff like this... [02:12:12-02:12:14] was just merely, it wasn't technically be standard, of course [02:12:19-02:12:21]. I sat down, he said “Patrick, can I ask you a question, tell me something about the [02:12:27-02:11:29] guy”. “Sure. Well, I start... It was actually [02:12:40-02:12:42] walking away from the camera. Anyone of the [02:12:44-02:12:45] I could see you in the studio and he came back and I was still talking and it was not like... So, that's basically the thing [02:12:54-02:12:55] 3:00 hours. It was 3:00 hours. I was looking and of course, he said, “you know, I want to tell you something. I’ve had everybody [02:13:03-02:13:04]. I have never ever, ever told this. Is that a good thing? Because you really [02:13:17-02:13:19]. I said, “you know, it's funny when I was a kid and the first time, I ever got on the airplane was in August of 1967 to go to the world's fair. A lot of people don't know that when I was a kid, I played baseball because of my passion about baseball. And we won a little league baseball championship in my home town which traveled from my province and then the maritime provinces. And then we went to Montreal to the world's fair to compete in the world. [02:13:47-02:13:49] big deal, you know”. By the way, we lost and that's another story. But I said to my mom, “hey, mom. You know, [02:13:57-02:13:58]”. I sat in the middle row and old people beside me. I know what they're saying or... I just can't understand. “How are you?” conversation. What should I say to old people? And my mom said just be yourself. Just say hello. It's nice to meet you. Where are you going, why are you going there, how was life? Tell me something about… Can you give me a lesson? So, when I was at an early age, I started a dialogue with these old people. Which [02:14:38-02:14:40] imagine. Your kind of... I think that wisdom, this is not always the case, but you know the older you get, the wiser you generally become. It's like [02:14:54-02:14:57] Here’s a lesson for 2 people or more [02:15:00-02:15:01], which is always a great opportunity to learn. And so, I just found this ability to talk and engage with people. And so, even here in Japan. Japanese are not [02:15:11-02:15:12] they're very, very friendly but Japanese won’t come to you and just say hello, how are you? [02:15:17-02:15:19] it's not their culture but I am... I think in many ways it's also being an important part of my personality. As well to be able to [02:15:27-02:15:28] I don't know. I watched what you did or I’ve read your book or seen you in this film. [02:15:40-02:15:41] What type of training or study did it require for you to know [02:15:48-02:15:49]. I'm really interested and it’s working very well. So, we started talking at 8:00 [02:15:57-02:15:01] 12 hours...
Jeremy Lesniak:
I thought maybe you've done some research and you notice Tony Blauer hit gone for it was like 2:30.
Paul McCarthy:
Tony Blauer… I know who that is. Is he the Vancouver boy, isn’t he?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think he is.
Paul McCarthy:
You think? [02:16:20-02:16:23]
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yup! I had him on like this is like [02:16:25-02:16:27].
Paul McCarthy:
I have never met him by the way. I certainly know…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Great guy.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah. I know he has a reputation. But, give an example. There was a guy and I'm also a Vancouver boy by the way. I ultimately want to be in Vancouver which I consider my home state. Although I'm from [02:16:45-02:16:49] In my early years in Vancouver, I used to host a lot of seminars. [02:16:56-02:17:02] I got a guy who's a police officer with the former background in the military, Canadian military. Whose name was [02:17:16-02:16:17]. I hope you're doing well brother. Thank you for whatever that you do. Serving and protecting people. He used to teach down at the barracks in Vancouver and he used to teach her... Gosh. I'm struggling to defend [02:17:39-02:17:40] defend doer, something like that and I remember what the hell is [02:17:43-02:17:46]. It was an old guy, his name... I'm going to say he is a Bill Underwood? I could be wrong. That's the name that comes to my mind.
Jeremy Lesniak:
[02:17:59-02:18:00] this one.
Paul McCarthy:
He was like a veteran of World War 2 or World War 1 or something. I'm talking, this is in the late 70s. Maybe 79 or 80. And he said he threw together some jiu jitsu tactics and called them tricks. And introduce it to the military. It became a personal combat of the school program that they used to run. And got bigger, extended, expanding. And that's where I heard the name Tony Blauer for the first time because I think that Tony… And I could be wrong and I stand to be corrected please. I'm sure someone will correct me. But it just seems to me that I heard that the first is that was a bit of his lineage. And then he went on to explore functionality against dysfunctional martial art practices. I think he had a synergy with law enforcement and the military as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes.
Paul McCarthy:
[02:19:05-02:19:07] I don’t know what the acronym stands for but what I do remember is about punctuality. He's developed that into a templated based learning to do in his lectures. And he does hands on classes and they develop some type of gear, right? Some type that you can attack me full blast.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The high gear suits are his. In which you've probably seen them. They're the black versions of the red man suits.
Paul McCarthy:
Okay, I'll take your word for it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Paul McCarthy:
That's why I know the name Judy Brower and I can tell you sort of what I've heard. I've heard his name spoken with great respect in one area and not so much in another. Traditional guys have a problem with him because he speaks about dysfunctionality. Is that a word? The way I... maybe I share the same beliefs. It's an overly ritualized practice Jiu jitsu that can really harm in a real fight. So, yes, I know I haven't heard his name quite a while. But, yeah. Tony Blauer. So, we went for... How long did you start it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was like 2:30. Yeah, we got to… I mean that the style of the show is slightly different. I was a little bit more regimented than I kind of ran down through the list of questions.
Paul McCarthy:
[02:20:33-02:20:34] he's a Canadian, you know. [02:20:36-02:20:38]
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I believe…
Paul McCarthy:
He lives in California, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
He does. Yup.
Paul McCarthy:
Right. I try to live in California by the way. I just left Australia in August of 2019 after a very lengthy immigration application process [02:20:54-02:20:55]. I didn't have a sponsor to fund myself. Another story, I got my green card. I got a living green card. I think they called it the Hollywood green card and I went. I moved myself and my wife to DTLA. I live right Downtown Los Angeles. And I don't know whether I can help to do that but that was the biggest mistake of my life. Of course, no sooner than we'd been there. We got all settled in. Starting my organization based out of there in a deliberate traveling and then boom. March, COVID hit. And then of course the presidential election began. All those riots that you saw in DTLA, they were [02:21:39-02:21:42] see those riots and gunshots and helicopters over my roof. I don't mean like near my apartment but right over my roof for 4 weeks. And you know, even towards September, October, November. You know, when the Lakers won their first game. After the COVID which destroyed downtown LA again. [02:22:07-02:22:08]. And then, of course, when the Dodgers won the World Championship, they destroyed downtown again. Hopeless destruction looting violence was terrible. I just couldn't wait to get out of there. And so, my wife is Japanese by the way. She wants to leave immediately but I wasn't allowed to fly to Japan from America. So, I had… As a Canadian I was able to go back to Canada right away. And it was a lengthy process. I just put everything. If you're living in Los Angeles, not to take it out again... So, there's a need for another book but I went to [02:22:47-02:22:48] actually. And I prepared all my documents and went to the Japanese embassy. I had to do quarantine first and the medical testing. [02:23:01-02:23:02] my case. You know and my god. Something happened that I was happy about. They granted me on the spot. I mean, I would probably never heard of it before, And I said why am I getting this? They said “Well, first. nobody's going to Japan. [02:23:21-02:23:22] office. All of us can work right away. But then again, I had to take COVID test before the plane and then when I got to Tokyo. [02:23:38-02:23:39] airport rather than to never reach it. When I got off the airplane, I couldn't interact and had to take another COVID test. Another 14 days quarantine. Fortunately, my daughter documents [02:23:48-02:23:49] in Tokyo. So, they were able to [02:23:51-02:23:52] away and I could use their apartments for the 2 weeks I was there. And I got to stay or something. I got on the airplane and flew to Okinawa which is the island of Karate. Lifestyle here is so slow, it's so peaceful. Everybody is so friendly, the food is great, the people are friendly, it's far less expensive than it is in LA. And it’s just a very different vibe. And I think that I am so happy to be here. At my age, you were years ahead of me. I'm not sure. And certainly, with the pandemic. I still have no idea; we really don't have any idea. Even with the vaccine story coming out was such an unimaginable year. But we've entered into another year which is so far, we haven't really been able to define yet how these guidelines are going to create what kind of all kinds of records. And so, we're still... It's still very untenable. I just feel for so many of my friends in college for. They have lost jobs, lost loved ones. They are just… I’m sorry. Change the tenor of this conversation. Yes, sorry. Los Angeles. Been there, done that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why would you apologize? No apologies needed. You know at the beginning of the show, you brought up the actors…
Paul McCarthy:
Actor's workshop.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Actor's workshop and longtime listeners know that inside the actor's studio is a big influence for me in the way I conduct myself in my interviews. If you watch any of those which I was researching a little bit from my phone as you were talking. That looks like it was the precursor to the show that I watched.
Paul McCarthy:
Who's the host?
Jeremy Lesniak:
James Lipton.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, I'm so sorry. I mean I made a mistake.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is that what you meant?
Paul McCarthy:
I'm so sorry. I might [02:26:07-02:26:08]. I should make some notes or something.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There was an actor's workshop. I'm not familiar with it but I was googling and there was. It seems to be very similar. yeah. [02:26:18-02:26:19] there briefly from where I pulled up. I think you were right you just didn't mean to be. And. If you look at [02:26:30-02:26:31]. You watch the way he interviews; he gets out of the way. And the best example of that is the Robin Williams episode. Where he talks about a 2-hour interview that they had to cut down to 30 minutes. And 10 minutes before he gets his first question. Robin Williams, just go.
Paul McCarthy:
I got to tell you. He’s such a beautiful person. [02:27:03-02:27:04] you're right. Permanent ending directions. It shows you a temporary problem and it's just so [02:27:10-02:26:11] said while addressing a brilliant, brilliant human being, Robin Williams. you think in terms of some of the best dramatic acting from a comedian. When you try to determine what was going on... I worked a little bit in the film industry. But just from my angle. As a martial artist. Vancouver was the reason why I actually went to Vancouver in 1979. [02:27:45-02:27:52] was called bill 88. It was a CRTC bill, allowing foreign countries to come into Canada and shoot your film or whatever project was. At 100 percent tax. [02:28:00-02:28:01] 88 percent getting content. And that of course suits the American. In those days, Americans were the largest in the world, the Hollywood film industry to come up. All we need to do is bring the principles. And the director and the cameraman and the rest. The lighting, the food, the supporting actors and the extras. All those cruises and locations [02:28:25-02:28:28]. And my partner at the time, she ran an agency called Talent Search Productions in Toronto. And her current business partner Janet [02:28:42-02:28:43] went to Vancouver to open up what they called Central Casting Canada. Which we did back away. [02:28:51-02:28:57] and ground level opportunity to work in all kinds of different productions. Either as an extra special business structure or teaches somebody out.
I'm sure you know because in those days there were not schools as they are today to actively coordinate how fights scenes should go. There's a lot of arguments from some real martial artists, “that’s not the way you fight!” or maybe you're right but you don't understand the camera trajectory and depth of the field. So, you don't think you're going to face to make it look like it and so on. And they like me for doing that and as you go why I came to this spot right now. [02:29:38-02:29:40] about Robin Williams. It was the last straw project I worked on before I left Vancouver for Japan. Was called [02:29:44-02:29:45] and with Steve Martin. So, I work 5 weeks on the side with Steve Martin. Here’s a guy again, a comedian. Yeah. So, I work with him. If someone would not have told me he's a comedian I would have never known because he was so tuned in to the idea of the business centers. and [02:30:17-02:30:18] that was the first generation of mobile phones. Those days were when Motorola came out with a telephone [02:30:27-02:30:30] big monster. Before he was on the phone all the time making business deals. Excuse me. Very, very much. [02:30:37-02:30:38] being a comedian and I thought, wow. That really takes a lot of work. And now you add what [02:30:50-02:30:51] I have an amazing respect for that guy. And I did see that episode by the way, one of my favorites. I can only imagine the task they would have had in the editing department. Took to put that into each of the presentations. I would think how Jackie Chan was made popular by [02:31:15-02:31:16] bloopers in the credits at the end.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Was the best part of the movie.
Paul McCarthy:
That's what I mean. And could you imagine having climbed the wall or to have access to [02:31:27-02:31:29] to a lot of those interviews. It would not make for an interesting list.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Who wouldn't want it?
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah. I guess gyms since the pandemic started, have stopped our traveling around the world, our social gatherings. You know reduce [02:32:00-02:32:01]. Just placed them in places like zoom and things like that. Where one door closes, another one opens. When you're trying to see the good side of a bad thing. Look at... There's no glossing over the horrific and unimaginable death toll that this pandemic has delivered. And certainly, the mismanagement of whoever may be responsible for mismanagement of setting guidelines and restrictions. I’m just saying. But when it's done. It's like giving birth to these zoom type encounters and I'm not sure how many of them this year or sorry in the state this last 12 months. [02:32:59-02:33:00] Next month will be one year. One, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We were talking about it a year ago now.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The whole question was when it was going to reach where you were, where it was.
Paul McCarthy:
We're pretty deep. I'm still thinking about all the stuff that's transpired. I'm sure… No, questions. When they get back to making films, this will certainly set the groundwork for any film. That'll be… By the way, talking about films, I was just thinking about. The other day, [02:33:41-02:33:42]. In Okinawa, everybody knows [02:33:42-02:33:43] so rich because the movie is so surprising. And talking about catastrophic things happening and with the pandemic. I don't mean to say that it was catastrophic but like for example, a bomb didn't explode. Nobody, nobody launched a missile at a shore. The incident searching Wyatt war, you know, so to speak. There are so many lives lost. You know, I went to [02:34:13-02:34:15] which means the castle ruins of [02:34:19-02:34:20] completely forgot that the castle was ruined. And one part of it is [02:34:25-02:34:26] coming up which is all covered now with jungle snakes. [02:34:31-02:34:32] When I walked down and looked up, there are monuments there to commemorate the lives lost. The catastrophic engagement that exists there [02:34:50-02:34:51] and I actually speak to someone who was there. And another guy whose name is [02:34:55-02:34:57] civilian war historian. [02:35:04-02:35:05]. He's actually out in the Pacific Northwest right now. I would talk about a battle that raged around on there. He sent back something because it was so explosive [02:35:20-02:35:23] is less than the size of a football field. [02:35:29-02:35:42] that’s why put it up at another 90 degree or 45-degree angle. So, that's how steep it was and the rock is… I don’t want to use the word “limestone” that can be shaved and made into a nice look. This stuff is like coral reef rock. I mean if you're walking around and just catching foot. [02:36:09-02:36:11] machine guns going off and that’s how trafficking [02:36:17-02:36:19] understands that. This pandemic, you know the enemy is not biased. It doesn't have an ethnicity to it. I don’t want to say it's Chinese but… So, it doesn't have a face so to speak. It's not biased, it doesn't listen to race or religion or financial position. It's just terrible. We are going to this pandemic and then we [02:37:00-02:37:05] google [02:37:10-02:35:13] 1999... I think 1990 was it. [02:37:21-02:37:23] Is that 20 first century? And now we're looking at 2 million already?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, we just passed half a million here in the U. S...
Paul McCarthy:
[02:35:36-02:37:37]. It's like when this is going to stop and I'm so... I look at my fingers every day and the cuticles are getting rough as I wash my hands every day because I either have to work at the shop or I am done with the Dojo. I love going out. Going to the parks and going down to the ocean and the modern island. So, it's not that big to start with. I can be at the ocean, front or on a mountain or a historical site in the morning, for example. To get there, you have to drive and take the hotel. Well to get there. [02:38:17-02:38:19] I'm always washing my hands. I'm wearing my mask. Actually, two masks. I still see people walk around with no mask on. [02:38:32-02:38:35] hate going to elevators. I want to continue living. My friends who are still in North America and one in particular who’s extremely successful in karate schools. This guy got 15,000 team members and students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
In the US?
Paul McCarthy:
No, in Canada and Toronto.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sounds like someone we need to have on the show.
Paul McCarthy:
I would be happy to make an introduction.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That would be great.
Paul McCarthy:
I’ll say his name.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Please, please do.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, his name is Cezar Borkowski and he’s in Toronto. And very well we're around the same age. We came up through the ranks together and in my opinion, he’s the answer to management of modern Karate. Here's how you package modern karate into a functionally effective tradition but keep it as a valuable. Heritage. Legacy. And representing that legacy of the pioneers and putting it into a stage training environment. Teachers really know what they're talking about. Keeping on top of the pedagogic and also from a business model. I've never met anybody who likes to stand where the world is. And he's highly respected by... I mean, are you believing those detractors have a hard time batch knocking this guy? You know. They are [02:40:21-02:40:22]. And I know the type of guy he is. He's in a way, I can liken this to our family. He is the paternal role model of his organization. And he would rather go without... Just to make sure that someone else has. He's a classic example of “we” and “us” and “not me and I”. I didn't make a great... Based on the modest side, we have to ask more questions [02:40:57-02:41:03] And if you want…
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I did. I just made a note, will...
Paul McCarthy:
[02:41:08-02:41:09] Some of the guys I know as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm sure.
Paul McCarthy:
Who are just absolutely wonderful? They might not all be using the same yardstick to measure other values in life or to destroy the [02:41:22-02:41:23], they're equally alternatively. Great people who offer wonderfully valuable insights into empowerment, you know. A guy approached me, not so long ago, [02:41:38-02:41:47] John Tony Robbins [02:41:49-02:41:51] I just have a student of mine actually, Canadian. Actually, personal friends. They're going to feed you to this thing every year in the dojo house and it was really great. But no one... I was a terrible student at school by the way. I was a high school dropout. And never went back to school until I was and I was... I went back with a passion and a target muscle and you could stop me there but there was nothing that really captured my attention. I can tell you on one hand the things that I do. I remember most of my [02:42:31-02:41:32] wrestling and baseball of course. You know, [02:42:35-02:41:38] I love my French teacher which I privately will tell you another time. But we will go there. I love the theatre arts and the only reason I [02:42:56-02:42:58] I define that in a very different way than you think it came out. One reason why I liked it was because you have a chance to fool around. [02:43:10-02:43:12] and I was going to get credit for it. So, this is great because we were doing math to algebra. And I remember, my teacher said to me, you got to write a report on [02:43:24-02:43:29] there's a lot of it in our hands you got to… so the two things are [02:43:39-02:43:41] with the 2 books I had read. Isn’t it fascinating? 50, more than 50 years later, what sticks in my mind other than reference [02:43:49-02:43:57] And that was the 2 books I read called [02:44:01-02:44:03]. The 2 books are completely different in nature, I'm sorry, in definition but almost identical. [02:44:15-02:44:16] It was about aliens and transformation. Right? But what I didn't realize was they were using aliens and invasion to describe people who thought differently about that which is to understand and that definitely was not a bad thing. It's a good thing. And then that measured the strength of character. And another one book is called As a Man Thinketh by James Allen who's a Victorian writer. [02:44:47-02:44:48] wrote the book and you can read it in half an hour. I read a book about... I love reading by the way. James Allen made sure that the book did not have a copyright so that everybody can copy and plagiarize it into new research because he really believes these words to be timeless lessons and I suppose I am biased because I’m a man. It's kind of discriminatory but that was Victorian culture by the way. Had James lived in the 20-century, that book would be called As a Person Thinketh [02:45:26-02:45:27] journey about like I said the [02:45:28-02:45:29] that book the word she jumped off those pages when I read it. I’d probably read the book a hundred times [02:45:40-02:45:41] I just have a photographic memory with regards to things like that. Another thing I didn't know about it, I wish I would have known that, I would have applied it then. So, it's either you wake up or discover our thoughts. There's something greater in light. You can aspire to it and there is a pathway to follow.
You're going to find it and that's the journey and then when you find it there's another journey on top of that. And then there's always [02:46:11-02:46:12] going to run to find your character. And adversity is the lesson and then there's the empowerment part and then there's the giving it back as a gift to others less fortunate. That’s what as a man I think it's what about and that had a profound effect on my young life as a young person. When I listen to guys like not just [02:46:33-02:46:34] but a lot of speakers. [02:46:41-02:46:42] But, there are a few other people who got a couple Canadians who thought and expanded upon the same timeless principles as James Allen. And when I listen to Tony Robbins, I just think that's James Allen. It's just James Allen and I'm being reinterpreted to address the same timeless problems that we have in life through a lack of identity, security and fear without enough love. I tend to look for that through the historical research who uses [02:47:22-02:47:23] the balance and physicality of this brutal killing art to create such beauty as in not killing people. I mean you think about it. [02:47:36-02:47:37] karate, kung fu... What it means to be a nonlethal [02:47:42-02:47:43] and how does one create a set of guidelines or body of principles or moral's philosophy to govern the behavior of people who would… In other words, without mentality, used to harm people [02:48:06-02:48:09] there are some traditions that emphasize that type of mentality. None of [02:48:13-02:48:15] I think that itself is just another part of an area of study that doesn't get as much [02:48:25-02:48:26] if I can use that term but now with this, as it was the [02:48:30-02:48:31] zoom thing because of the pandemic has opened a new door for folks [02:48:35-02:48:46] and for folks. And I myself and techniques you're [02:48:40-02:48:41] I'm not good at all these kinds of platforms I am talking about. [02:48:49-02:48:50] and it's something that is on the agenda for me getting settled here in Okinawa. I'm going to put a lot more time into this type of platform. So, when I get the privilege of the opportunity to speak to someone like yourself and I know this is kind of hands on, it's free, it's being recorded. So, it's going to be there for posterity. Thank god that I can say something must have intelligence that might help inspire someone else who's listening out of the sky flat on his lips. You know, for 3:00 hours.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes.
Paul McCarthy:
You said something about you know inspired or a deeper consideration of something else that I may go back and look at it. Or, I may go back and look at the actor's workshop where the actors’ studio or [02:49:45-02:49:49] or whoever it was. I call those guys gatekeepers by the way after a while their names are not so important as it is their message. They say history repeats itself. And you know if your students are really smart you can learn from the mistakes that history has recorded. That's why this study is practiced. [02:50:12-02:50:20] “I can’t live without my money”. I think your health is more important than money, okay. So, folks, look on your health first. When you are healthy it's probably easier. You know, negotiate that stress and frustrations so she would not be able to get any money. [02:50:39-02:50:48] So, hey, there's a new topic for another interview.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've got a long list of those.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, like I say, I’m going to apologize for taking your time…
Jeremy Lesniak:
On the telephone...
Paul McCarthy:
It was actually a question. [02:51:08-02:51:10]
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, I think we started from “hi” and we started chatting. And you can see, you went... Here's my theory and I get a lot of positive feedback on this.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I see my job as to facilitate the guest telling their story.
Paul McCarthy:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You made my job really easy today. I just listen.
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, no. I get that. Thank you. I think that is not a problem anyway.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do too. You were comfortable enough to do that. All too often. I don't know how often you listen to podcasts. I was in a lot of podcasts, most rooms. I listen to other podcasts as well and you get a lot of hosts who are very egocentric and they can't get out of the guest’s way. We had a... I make sure that I chime in quietly to let you know that I'm still here. Beyond that, I didn't see any need to interrupt. What am I going to ask you that you're going to want to talk about more than what you were just talking about? And when someone talks about the things that they're passionate about you're going to get the best stuff out of them. I could steer you in a different direction, sure but that's not a direction you want to go. That’s arrogant on my part as an interviewer. So, I just get the hell out of the way away.
Paul McCarthy:
What’s so funny is I’m so organic with stuff. You know I always kind of respond and think about things just like it’ll be the defense to the offense. And defense is better than offense because I was already taking the initiative to attack you. If you're lucky enough and can attack what’s in front of you, that's a luxury by the way. How you respond to it depends largely on what your experiences are, and when you were just talking about the [02:53:05-02:53:06]. So, I speak Japanese by the way. In Japanese there's a kind of a, we have a culture called [02:53:14-02:53:15]. That's a long explanation. Was kind of like... The Japanese are always [02:53:21-02:53:21] always a certain way, where they are always very polite and even if they see me... They don't particularly like they'll be polite to the person, [02:53:30-02:53:35] never to be seen unless you're angry or drunk. A bomb on both cases by the way. So, when a senior is speaking to a junior, it's not the junior’s place to question or talk or either act but they have [02:53:50-02:53:59] It's kind of a verbal acknowledgement and responsibility of the listener to make every once in a while, that lacks the talker or speaker they're listening and they're paying attention. So, it would be something like in English, [02:54:24-02:54:25]. If I was listening to you in Japanese, I would make these types of noises like. (making different types of voices). In English, it will be like “yeah, yeah, yeah”, like that. And so, that's the first thing about research. That's kind of like really boring, right? Because it helps the flow and synergy of the engagement. [02:54:55-02:54:56] And so, many years, late 80s, early 90s, I was doing a research project and the focus of my attention was why is that some people have such a problem with accepting certain lessons in certain matters training? And that I'd come into contact with few pioneers. Long gone by the way.
I was just studying their work but I was studying it in a second language. I didn't have much control over the language than as I do know. Particularly the written ones. I learned that the old-style Chinese which is Japanese, Okinawan, was read back [02:55:43-02:55:53] we live in a very functional direction. Like okay f*ck off, go there. You say what you mean, you mean what you say. “What does he mean, why did he say that?” [02:56:04-02:56:05]. The Japanese’s not that way. It's really the responsibility of the listener because my mistakes made could never be the listener’s. How would the listeners would understand what I said? So, [02:56:23-02:56:27]. “I'm Patrick McCarthy [02:56:28-02:56:39]”. Born 1829 and died 1899. He was the most popular martial artist at this time. Anyway, that's the story. And I was trying to [02:56:51-02:56:51] less these writings 80/82-year-old, 7 principles of martial arts. And then an 1885-year-old book called [02:56:58-02:57:01]. I don't see that being which... I guess it's like maybe a kind of an extension of our problem, say or a metaphor, like how to live life. Like wisdom, you know. What I got from it was [02:57:20-02:57:21]. He said “for those whose progress is hampered by ego related distractions. That’s humility. [02:57:36-02:57:37] in a cornerstone upon which the fighting and arts rests to remind you to place virtue before vice, values before vanity and principles and personality. I remember the great. I told myself, “wow”. What I found most interesting about is that... And by the way, paraphrasing. He did not say that directly, that's my interpretation of what he meant. Because [02:58:10-02:58:14]. I think that's what he meant and you know, when you translate there's also an interpretation. My wife is a professional interpreter by the way. [02:58:24-02:58:25]. There's a kind of law and ethics in interpretation. You're not supposed to, I'm sorry as a translator, you're not supposed to interpret what he said. You're supposed to translate what he said. So, let's say, that you know the person, you know the bias, you're not supposed to share that bias with the listeners. I'm not... I don't go into that topic; I think you should. Let it all, the responsibility about the scientists in the discovery, is to share that with the next generation. That's how we progressed. So, I think the wise thing about what he said and what he meant was, he's speaking about timeless principles. So, the principle itself doesn't change. The straight line doesn't change, you know, mass times acceleration doesn't change. [02:59:18-02:59:19] These things, these timeless sciences that'll change. If they do change, it becomes phenomenal.
So, what I loved about what he said is that the message is as valuable now as it was 100 years ago, 500 years ago and a 1000 years ago. And it will be continually valuable well into the foreseeable future. Who doesn't want to embrace that? And then my [02:59:53-02:59:54] lives on bread alone”. He said “you will think you will find the oligarchs of this planet. don’t necessarily think in an ethical way that you would like to do. There's something called power, greed and control. I said, “Don’t get me start it, man.” I don't have any problems sleeping at night. I’m… We were talking about this thing or what changes you and [3:00:18–3:00:19] to go in life and, I got to tell you man. I am so far out of shape right now. God*mn! I got to juggle like a dishwasher [3:00:29–3:00:34] alone at one time, and this last at least, this last one year. Oh my God, frightfully, drastic for me about giving them. And another thing about, I cannot wait to get back at the [3:00:47-3:00:48], get down on the ground and start training with people again because it’s just… [3:00:53-3:00:54] is really, really difficult. You're continually searching for, “Oh, I thought you were next first!” You know what, strong people who shed some tears from time to time too. We also need our motivation and need all, “We need our heroes! To be heroes, we don't [3:01:11-3:01:13] beings and frail too.” So, I though, I just, they, “I’m dying to get on [3:01:19-3:01:21] to spar with somebody, dying to. Just hit some focus, for God’s sakes, and have an up-close and personal encounter with somebody [3:01:30-3:01:31]. I don't know when that's going to happen. And you're on top [03:01:33-03:01:35] is that going on anywhere right now? What are [3:01:42-3:01:43] doing?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don’t know.
Paul McCarthy:
Oh yeah, okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don’t know, a bit.
Paul McCarthy:
You know I, myself, am ready to do it, immediately. And, with some of the people I have here in Okinawa, they're very ready [3:01:58-3:01:59] you. And, I got a lot of people saying, “Hey, who are you working with?” I said, “I am not symptomatic.” I wore a mask, I exercised social distancing, I washed my hands and I am not positive. And I know that my friend, James, he's the same way. But, wait. Bob is married with 4 kids, and Bob’s kids are in school, or they’re not in school, or they’re playing with other kids. And, you know it's entirely possible that something's been transmitted, Bob doesn't even know if he’s got it, [3:02:38-3:02:42]. Like I said, I'm in the most susceptible category. I’m past retirement age. I'm carrying, I say this lightly, a few extra pounds, and I have respiratory-asthma. So, I [3:03:01-3:03:05]. And so as much as I, love! To get back on the ground and do that. You know I go over to that Naminoue waterfront, I walked at the beach in the morning. [3:03:18-3:03:19] gone to the forest. I got to be careful there because the snakes. You know this is a, it's a little bit [3:03:23-3:03:24], a little bit cold here. For you it wouldn’t be cold. For you this will be a summer's day. But you know, I’m on Celsius, not Fahrenheit. For example, we have 10°C, I don’t know what that could be.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I’m wearing a T-shirt, in your 10 degrees.
Paul McCarthy:
Well, that's what I need and I’m a Canadian, and 10° is nothing. 14 degrees, people are all bundled up with scarves and hats, I’m in shorts and shirts. But the point is, I can walk in the forest or in woods now because it's cold, and reptiles cannot come out in the cold. I lived in Australia for 20 years. Let me know, I know all about poisonous snakes and here in this island we have a snake problem, they’re called, “Habu snakes” and they're poisonous as well, they kill you. I can’t keep my friends walking in. I said, “Come on!” “It’s too cold.” “It is not cold. For a snake, it’s cold.” So, the snakes don’t want to come out until it is 25-30°. So, I said, “We’re still safe.” I’ll go out to Shuri Castle which was burned down and I’ll go to this, there’s something called, [3:04:39-3:04:42] tombs. They are very, very interesting in shape which resembles the [3:04:47-3:04:49], and they’re hundreds and hundreds of years old, obviously those ones that were not destroyed during the war. That’s because of the confusion-based culture here, and that the [3:05:02-3:05:06] at certain times over the year to visit the tombs and open the tomb and take the urn out and clean the bones. It's a religious, spiritual process here. But, there's lots of guys like, who are really famous, martial art masters. The other day I was [3:05:24-3:05:25]. I was there actually to visit [3:05:29-3:05:30] the tomb of Miyagi Chojun. Remember that Karate Kid that was supposed to be about that Miyagi… Well, Miyagi Chojun was the founder of the pioneer, Goju-ryu Karate. [3:05:41-3:05:42] I went to pay my respects, run a couple of [3:05:43-3:05:44] in front of his tomb there. Then you know, I went to that place called Makabi. Makabi’s got a bunch of [3:05:53-3:05:54] there. There’s one from Itosu Anko, another one’s from [3:05:56-3:05:57], this guy I’ve told you about. I got [3:05:58-3:05:59] there and [3:05:58-3:06:01] with me, sit around and read the history on this epic [3:06:06-3:06:08]. Other time bumped into other people who are crazy like me and [3:06:11-3:05:12] there as well. The other day, I drove up. I went up north. I went up to [3:06:17-3:06:20] there was a cherry blossom season was very early in Okinawa compared to the Mainland. And so, I looked up to cherry blossom as I visited the Nakijin Castle. I went the way up to my friends, “Hey! Did you know that Matsumora Kosaku, his name sounds a little bit like, [3:06:37-3:06:38]? That one is ‘Matsumura’ and that’s a ‘Matsumora’. [3:06:41-3:06:42] right here.” “Oh God, how did you know that?” So, we stopped and spend an hour there. So, I'm still pretty [3:06:50-3:06:51]. Getting an errand and do a lot of things every day, and that there's so many beautiful places on the island to visit. So, I'm staying active. But you know why I just relocated here a couple months like less than 3 months ago, we still haven’t found a house to buy yet. It’s a great buyers’ market right now because you know I have a couple properties in [3:07:12-3:07:16]. I got all that money in the bank now. We’re ready to buy another place if we find one. We don't buy something and realize this is the wrong place. We're just living at the [3:07:28-3:07:30] apartment. We’ve just found a house now, down in a place called, [3:07:37-3:07:38] and so we’re all going to live there [3:07:41-3:07:42] 5-bedroom house. It’s much nicer by American standards, not so expensive. Maybe like 1,500 bucks a month. We'll live there while we continue to explore the island and find a place to live. But it's much closer to the ocean down there, so you know, how nicer to walk through stuff like that but, I'm dying to get back to training. I don't mean to turn this around [03:08:12-03:08:13] the interview but, you're obviously [3:08:14-3:08:15].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I am.
Paul McCarthy:
You too? What do you practice?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Everything that I can get my hands on. I consider myself styled, [3:08:23-3:08:24] grew up in Karate. I played a new bunch of different things. Some, little bit of Judo in there, different styles of Karate, some Capoeira and here in [3:08:47-3:08:38] some taekwondo and I have been [3:08:41-3:08:42] enough to connect up with, Kickboxing under the laws.
Paul McCarthy:
I thought [3:08:48-3:08:49].
Jeremy Lesniak:
[3:08:48-3:08:49] the show. Did you?
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, you got to tell me about that
Paul McCarthy:
My apologies, my apologies I’m sorry. Exhibition fight with [3:09:01-3:09:02]. I don’t know, you probably know this training but, long before… Let me see, get my [3:09:08-3:09:09] check. Long before September 1974, and Mike Anderson's first PKA where he became the champion, he had been a remarkable [3:09:22-3:09:23] fighter and, you don't background physical education, the best hamburger eater in the world. Such a great guy. I had a chance to [3:09:39-3:09:40]. A guy who had mentored me as a fighter in Canada, his name was Wally [3:09:47-3:09:48], and Wally was another personal [3:09:53-3:09:54].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I will interrupt you for the first. Did you know that they fought an exhibition match in ‘19?
Paul McCarthy:
I know that very, very well. In fact, …
Jeremy Lesniak:
Another, the people are going to think I'm getting the dates wrong. These 2 gentlemen… Don’t know. 2019. If we can find the video.
Paul McCarthy:
I'd seen Wally, a couple of times during the time he was preparing for the bout, he and I were friends for, oh gosh, 30 years?
Jeremy Lesniak:
He seems like a great guy.
Paul McCarthy:
Oh, Wally. Another guy that you should interview. He's a walking encyclopedia, man. All the information. Especially from the early ‘60s and early ‘70s. The promoter of that was [3:10:41-3:10:42], who is another remarkable person who stood out with his [3:10:52-3:10:53] Federation, and in harmony with [3:10:56-3:10:57] by the way, the Canadian Black Belt Hall of Fame. These 2 [3:11:01-3:11:02] were brought together and it was [3:11:04-3:11:05] for kids. The funds that were generated went to the children's foundation from that fight. [3:11:13-3:11:21] was the other guy, the other exhibition fighter as well. The Iceman. As I’ve normally I would've actually been there myself. I was inducted with community [3:11:31-3:11:32]. You [3:11:33-3:11:33] one of the things when you do what I do is, I travel a lot. Often in the events overlapped previously engaged from me. I wasn't even able to go to my own award ceremony. Yeah, Wally and [3:11:49-3:11:51]. But I mean, I look back across history, just like my own history. Great opportunities, man. What a wonderful life it’s been to walk and trained in the same Dojos as these guys, not little long to fight, being in the ring with them. I think this is all maybe heading for another book these days. I’ve written 9 books and, the people be like, “When are you going to write a book about yourself?” That's a really good question. It’s not the first-time people ask me that. But I'm just so, I think that there is a… I love the historical [3:12:31-3:12:32], and I love translations. I translate a lot of [3:12:35-3:12:36], and I generally tend to write about historical figures, pioneers, people who’ve contributed to the growth direction of our tradition. I think those guys, who had been lucky enough to come in contact with timeless. I think a lot of those guys who blasted and made names for themselves, was because they stumble across or were led down a pathway to discover these timeless lessons and messages. Timeless message is recognized by everybody. You know who take the time to learn it. Those things and I just, “I’ve learned that. [3:13:18-3:13:119] things.” Those types of principles and timeless messages that are life changer. Those are things that change. I said to you “Hey, look at that. I’ll tell you what. Can you give me 3 experts? 3 things in life that are life changer.” “I don't know.” There are really some people who can't [3:13:37-3:13:38] with. Other people would say, “My mother died”, “I got in a car accident”. They can immediately [3:13:45-3:13:46] other people not so much. So, when you can, when you have a, let's call it [3:13:49-3:13:51].
We have somebody who can, [3:13:54-3:13:55] a message and he can, he or she is able to… package the message in a way that is understandable by that group, or this gang, or that level of understanding. I think that's an important person, not just of course the message is universal. I was just like the person who can [3:14:27-3:14:28] my mind and I'm not a religious person at all by the way. I'm like you. Never mind if I’m spiritual or [3:14:34-3:14:38]. You know the thing is this, if there's a message let's say, [3:14:41-3:14:46]. “I don’t want to hear it first.” or you’re [3:14:48-3:14:51] Christian or something. I don’t want to listen, because they can’t get over the package that the message has wrapped in. They can't get me on the cosmetics [3:15:02-3:15:03]. They don't have a message. So that's one reason I alluded to [3:15:06-3:15:10] and anthropologist, and I love the work of so many cultural anthropologists. Campbell was quite a unique individual. That one of his 16 books he wrote it’s called, “The Hero with a Thousand Faces” and everybody calls God in different names, whether they believe or don’t believe. There's somewhere whether he’s going to be in your deathbed, begging for another few moments of air or uncertainly life depends how lucky you might be to discover that there is a higher source of power in the world other than you, is a valuable lesson and what it does is it tends to open up the doors of dropping ego, and allowing the [3:15:57-3:15:58] reality fear to understand. How fear molds a person and without proper education can turn people into bad. Sociopaths and bad people. With the right guidance, can create wonderfully creative people who can help educate [3:16:24-3:16:25] of other people in a way that perhaps is not possible down another [3:16:28-3:15:29]. That's why I believe so much in [3:16:30-3:16:31]. That's why I read a book bought by myself because I don't think what I got is as valuable as what has already been said by other people. So, I’ve got five [3:16:40-3:16:41] which it had been in my computer for the last few years. I still have [3:16:45-3:16:46] to finish it, a bunch of articles and things like that. We were talking about this “Zoom” thing, and one thing that my inability to travel around the world to come into contact with my own family, my own people of our own organization is, I have created [3:17:02-3:15:03] opportunities with which to help, meet and gather and educate our group so that they… but it's so consuming. It’s consumed a lot of my time that I don't have time for anything else.
I'm not complaining about that. It's a wonderful privilege I think, to come into contact with somebody who wants to share some of their life with you. Irrespective, however you breathe, maybe. [3:17:28-3:17:29] with everybody. I just sadly, I just had a guy quit in our organization the other day in anger, and going aligned himself with the guy who's actually an enemy, a real enemy [3:17:43-3:17:46] blah blah blah and I said “What did I do wrong that you want to go [3:17:02-3:17:59]?” it makes me reflect back on my own fragile that [3:18:07-3:18:08] on certain things. Was I so wrong to believe a certain thing that I maybe, I couldn't change the way I think that this person was offended by something? Just what in principle [3:18:18-3:18:20] makes. A guy to do something and we have a policy in place, not the policies that are not meant to be broken or changed. We have a policy in place was there for a reason and [3:18:31-3:18:32] to protect other people, and I said to the guy, “You don't… you shouldn’t do that, and you really should have… The policy is to bring it to the attention of either myself or the committee to see if it's all right to do that and this is what we will be more than happy to support you until [3:18:54-3:18:55].” It wasn't the first time he did it. It wasn’t the second time he did it and there was response to me or something like, “Oh yeah, I guess it kind of clearly shows what I was up to.” [3:19:05-3:19:10] so busy. I just had so many other priorities. [3:19:13-3:19:14] Stephen Covey look like a new victim from the book, “9 Habits” or something. By the time I’m trying to get around, the guy wrote his resignation letter and then was sporting this guy's [3:19:26-3:19:27] from another group. I can look back to my [3:19:30-3:19:31]. There are another learning lessons, just for you to think to know it all. Somebody comes by and destroys simple platform. Obviously, not everybody sees the same thing, the same way and, how can I be at this old in life and not have seen coming that type of thing. Don’t beat yourself up. You're not a lord. You're not the in charge of the inmates, man. People are afraid to do whatever they want. Not everybody thinks the same way about a certain thing. Ambition and [3:20:03-3:20:04] stuff like that cause to create people to lose certain things. Obvious that the person thought they were getting not enough recognition. They want some more, and I said, “Okay. I’ll back away from that book.” That was it so… You can edit this part if you like by the way. “Is the therapy session over?”
Jeremy Lesniak:
We’ve had an entire episode that are premised on me providing therapy
Paul McCarthy:
Oh… [3:20:26-3:20:27] was that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's were we break new, I mean, with five hundred and eighty episodes. We don't break a lot of new ground.
Paul McCarthy:
I’m just like, [3:20:36-3:20:39] listen to whole [3:20:40-3:20:41]. I tell you this that, there’s so… I have, I don't know if it's… May I ask how old you are?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I’m 41.
Paul McCarthy:
This life seems to be going by pretty quickly. I got a couple years on you and I'm going to tell you something. I look at my watch [3:20:58-3:21:00] to walk on the beach now, and by the time I know it's four o’ clock in the afternoon I [3:21:03-3:21:06].
Jeremy Lesniak:
[3:21:03-3:21:04]. It seems like it's going by faster as I get older which seems to be, painfully backwards.
Paul McCarthy:
But you know my wife says that, “You know it’s something that your brain is like, you can't think like a computer because you get all this cache memory [3:21:19-3:21:20]. You’re gonna thinking about it all day long.” You got to let it go, man. My wife is “Mrs. Holistic”. Organic [3:21:27-3:21:28], Yoga and Tai Chi in the morning, and all healthy thoughts. For her, diet is not about food. It's about lifestyle. She says, “You're going to stop being too serious about this. Stop it. Just, go back and…” She's really pushing towards [3:21:40-3:21:42]. Just like, “let everybody else do it now. Just go and enjoy the rest of your life.” People are very old here and they say that Okinawa has the oldest people in the world. When I was up north the other day, [3:22:02-3:22:03] group that was all… I was looking at a… There was a tree planted. It was a pine tree, and it was planted here in this field called, Sueyoshi Park, and it was dedicated to Gichin Funakoshi, who was a pioneer, who was one of the pioneers of Karate. I’ve never heard about that, long ago it was there. The old people said, “What are you doing?!” I said, “Oh…” in Japanese I said, “I'm looking at this little, [3:22:31-3:22:32], that has got an inscription on it, and I’m been admiring this big pine tree.” And they said, “Why are you doing that?” “Oh… because the person who did it, I just discovered I know who he is or was, and his contributions.” They look at me and they said, “Are you American?” “No. I’m a Canadian.” “Well, you’re not [3:22:49-3:22:50]?” “No.” and they said, “So you're not stationed here in [3:22:53-3:22:54].” “Oh no, no! I’ve moved here quite willingly.” And all they said, “Wow! You… that guy was born back in 1867.” “Well, it doesn't matter.” [3:22:05 -3:22:06]. And they were like, fascinated with me knowing, “That could be an Okinawan.” They were having a conversation and the one guy says, he wants to shake my hand on. At first, I was a little [3:23:19-3:23:20] very much to shake my hand. Does he know about COVID? Anyway, I just said, for some reason I just shook his hand and he spoke to me in a [3:23:27-3:23:28] that I couldn't understand, and my friends they always speaking [3:23:32-3:22:35]. That's a separate language from Japanese. I know a few words, right? So, I responded back. I said, “[3:23:42-3:23:51].” They got all up and started, “[3:23:53-3:23:55].” I said, “Okay. We got to get back to practice now. Let’s take one photograph and go.” “Practice what?” “You would what I call, ‘Croquet’? You have a wooden hammer to hit the ball on the field? Stuff like that” They call it, “field baseball” by the way. And, the one woman came over and she says, “[3:24:14-3:24:16]” “Ok. Stop, go away now. We’re busy.” And I said, “Oh yes. Obasan. Yes.” And the guy’s “Do you know how old she is?” “I have no idea. “She's 108 years old.” And I went, “What?!” And she was, “The other guy who wants to shake your hand, he's a young guy at 80, and the other guy who wants to dance, he’s 95.” And I said, “What is this club?” He said, “It’s this ‘Centennial Club.” And he said, “You can't really be a member ‘til you’re a hundred years old.” Did you guys [3:24:47-3:23:48] funny? Can you imagine they’re so active and they [3:24:51-3:24:52] poetry, they got a lot of stuff going on, they walk everywhere, they fish in Okinawan water, they love a little [3:24:57-3:23:58] of Awamori as well. I don't know if you know Awamori is, but that’s the native alcohol that's associated with Okinawa. And I was very, very surprised, I recently discovered, is actually originally from Thailand.
Jeremy Lesniak:
[3:25:13-3:25:14]
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, I believe it's made out of rice as well, I believe. [3:25:20-3:25:22]. But, Okinawa long time ago, used to be called, “Ryukyu”, the “Ryukyu Kingdom”. Thailand, used to be called, “Siam”. Isn’t it interesting that Karate is a martial art that use clinched fists, that kick people, that knee people and hit them with the elbow? Enemy all days in the Tegumi days, used the headbutt as well. They used to call it the “[3:20:51-3:23:52]”. Isn’t it interesting to my historical exploration, I found that in addition to China and Korea and all the other areas throughout Southeast Asia that the Ryukyu Kingdom traded with and that had commerce with, it also had more than 260 visits? That's a group of ships, tribute ships, going down there to do business with the Kingdom of Siam. And you and I both know that the Kingdom of Siam had as a national pastime ever since the adopted king of the 1700s use Siamese boxing, and in the old days was called “Muay Boran”. Thanks to these guys Tony Jaa and people like that who have brought a new way of looking at choreographing fight scenes using traditional Muay Boran as fight scenes, the people who have eyes to able to see beyond the so called ritualized, classic traditions and the white uniforms in the robotic movements who are incapable of seeing this. I think Karate looks to China, “Yes, our roots are from China.” and without question, they are. But in my historical exploration, I have found that Ryukyu Kingdom had, and forget weapons for a minute okay, which were a big “[3:27:18-3:23:19].
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, sure.
Paul McCarthy:
People say, “Oh… Okinawa had no weapons.” But that’s not even true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
This doesn't make sense.
Paul McCarthy:
In 1985, my first book “Classical Kata of Okinawan” was destroyed by the way, but that’s another story. Talking about empty-handed traditions. Okay, the Okinawans wrestles. There's a story about [3:27:39-3:23:40], leave it for other time but, it was brought by the Japanese here. But invariably, the rest came from China to Japan, into Ryukyu Kingdom, and so yes that’s Chinese. Capturing and controlling which was described in October 1908 by Itosu Anko's “Torite” in his [3:27:56-3:27:57], is obviously came from China, okay. By the way, the [3:28:02-3:28:08]. Kata is what I know today as Kenpo or Kung Fu or North or South, internal, external, is a collection of abstract movement geometrical configuration, called a bunch of different names. That is the exclusive domain of Chinese, of arguably the political arguments between the Taoists and the Buddhists. One will say, “Tai Chi-Bagua is soft boxing, comes from Taoism. The other stuff is hard, it’s no good.as it’s from Shaolin.” That’s politics. [3:28:41-3:28:42] the Kata that ends up in Okinawa whether it’s domestically created or imported or exported in China, is from China. The only thing that you can’t find anywhere else in China is “Closed fist impact” style by, that’s not a Chinese phenomenon. Miyagi Chojun told us that he closed the fists in Kata. Kyan Chotoku, another one of the pre-war pioneers of Modern Karate. So yeah, the Chinese, their preferences, the open hands, and whether it’s Northern legs or Southern hands that gives birth to temple for example. This is not closest percussive impact. And if you look at Silat, [3:29:23-3:29:25] and the Southeast Asian part of Mainland from Singapore all way down to end of the islands, is not Closest Fists. It’s trapping techniques. It's a ground standard. Silat has a vibrant personality, which it would come from China by the way. But there's only one place in Southeast Asian that you find Closed Fists percussive impact that kick, knee and headbutt [3:29:47-3:29:51]. And so, as I put forth this thing that’s what is now called Karate, which is modern term by the way, comes from an earlier art called, “tii”or “tey” like “Kara” – “tey”, and we know that the word “te” by itself was used to describe a fighting art, and they used to refer to it as an indigenous fighting art. There's a very, very famous quote about a guy named Junsoku, who was a Lord and a Statesman who lived in the north, a place called “Nago” which I was, I had just a couple months ago visiting his monument by the way.
So well-known as a “father educator” of youth in his day, and he was famous for using “te”, sorry. “Karate” as a mechanism for young people help discover their own identity that he in 1683 he quoted, this is a famous quote he made. He said, “It's not enough that your ‘tii’ is embracing strong, but it must be reflected in your character and daily behavior.” And so famous was he for using “tii” that they nicknamed him, his [3:31:03:3:31:04] name is “Junsoku” but they nicknamed him, “Tei Junsoku”. And so, I used this kind of historical research as a basis to create a platform to delve deeper into: a) presenting that to my colleagues so they can destroy it and say, “No, this is bullsh*t.”, or b), “Wow. McCarty. You’ve done it again type of thing, right?” And so, when I said to them, “Modern Karate, it is the process [3:31:31-3:31:32] individual fighting art being fused together in [3:31:34:3:31:35] hazard manner by different people of different times and for different reasons. And by the time we got to the mainland in Japan, nobody was interested in wrestling on the mainland of Japan because I've been Jiu-jitsu for 500 years. And nobody was interested in Kobudo, the weapons of Okinawa, because nothing beats the sword. And, but they had never seen Kata before, and they had never seen closed fists [3:32:03:3:32:04]. I know that's hard to believe, isn’t it? “What do you mean? They'd never seen boxing before?” They’ve never seen it. The first time the Japanese public ever saw a boxing match, was in 1921. And 2 interesting, very interesting things happen for the birth of [3:32:23:3:31:24] by the way in 1921. On the 6th of March, 1921, the Crown Prince would become the emperor, that’s Hirohito. In Japan when you turn 20 years old there, they call it seijin, it’s a coming-of-age celebration, [3:32:40:3:31:41] wealthy aristocrat. He was going to do something when he was 20, he turned 20 years old in 1921. He was going to travel to Europe from Japan, and there were 2 battleships that were going to convey him, they were called Kashima and the Katori. They were actually made by British and American shipbuilders by the way. They were the most powerful battleships on the planet at that time. So, they feel quite secured in taking this emperor to Europe to meet King George and all the royalty and so the royal [3:33:16: 3:33:17] and all of the stuff over there.
And the commander of the Katori which was the lead ship, the mothership, was a guy named, Kenwa Kanna, Kanna Kenwa was his name and he had been an Okinawan, who was adopted by a Chinese naval family as a young baby, and brought up… for me here is commanding a battleship now which is the pride of the American Imperial Fleet. And it’s got the next emperor on board, so that is a privilege granted to few. And so, because he was an Okinawan, they decided that they going to stop in Okinawa on the way to Europe. This had never happened in Japanese history before and so what the Okinawan locals did was a, I mean in those days, the population of Okinawa was 600,000, they had every one of them were in the Port of Naha to greet the emperor when he arrived. And no one was prouder than the mother, who still live with this boy, would become the captain. They call him the “emperor's captain”. When they sailed into town, lots of things went on. I’ll spare you some details. But, on the 6th of March after they destroyed Shuri Castle, the spiritual location of the culture, the former capital, there was a Karate demonstration put on and the Emperor watched it, so there’s that. And at the same time on the other side of the world, not far from… yes, it is far from you but, in New Jersey was the world boxing championship, world titles between Jack Dempsey and a French [3:35:02:3:35:03] fighter, who’s also a boxer or a [3:35:04:3:35:05] a boxer, named Georges Carpentier. The reason why this fight is so famous is because it was the first time in boxing history that they have ever generated a million dollar [3:35:21-3:31:22]. And so, you know how [3:35:24-3:35:27], you can still see newsreel footage back of that on YouTube by the way if you do. But anyway, moral of this story is, that fight, the film of that fight was shown in Japan in the summer of 1921. What a lot of people don't know about Japan in the 1920s, don't forget that the 1920s, remember that was the [3:35:52:3:35:53].
Japan had only been pulled out from the dark ages of feudalism less than 50 years before that, you know what I mean? So, they had gone from… that's a Tom Cruise’s movie era around their type of thing. So, 50 years later is the 1920s and Japan had become one of the biggest powers on the planet. I mean there was the, they took Formosa in 1894-95, then there was the 55 Days at Peking you know the Boxer’s Rebellion? That’s the film [3:36:25-3:36:26]. But you know the Japanese have the Okinawans and the Japanese had a role in that as well, there was the Opium War issue, then there was the 1904 Russia-Japanese War, and then there was the… all of these things leading up to the entry of the Marco Polo bridge, to the Manchuria type of thing. So, a lot of things that helped build militarism, commerce, industry, mathematics, history, and science. All were grabbed from foreign cultures and brought into help develop Japan to become this modern, powerful nation. And in 1922, Japan was going to have their version of the world's [3:37:09:3:37:10]. They had this National Athletic Exhibition and they needed, they wanted… “Oh my God, Boxing!” They had tennis and baseball and all these sports, and dancing, and music. What they didn’t have was boxing. They wanted Jack Dempsey to come to… and definitely didn’t want to go to Japan. And a guy by the name of Sasaki Gogai, was a writer and wrote an article which was published in November of 1921, and in that article, he said, “We don't need them. We have our own [3:37:42-3:37:43] tradition, and it lies in the kingdom of the south. Why earlier this year, the Crown Prince himself marveled at the…” That's how Japanese first get a peek at saying, “Wow. We want this” and that’s what opened the door that allowed Karate to come up. Otherwise, really, really unknown. My late Master who died back in 2013 at 95 years old, was Okinawan and he said to me, “Patrick, growing up…” he said, “Nobody, let alone we Okinawans, ever thought Karate would ever be anything, let alone, be an Olympic sport.” It’s not just a legacy and a heritage, no. It’s the pride of Okinawa, that something as simple as Karate would attract the attention of the Emperor and then become of this worldwide 120 million people practicing Karate. And so, that’s what gave this birth, but it's also the same time what distorted its early origins to serve the military as a vehicle to us to funnel physical fitness and social conformity which would create this, unless with a lack of better world, really fits super conscripts who are gonna go and fight a war of [3:39:05:3:39:06] basically. I don't even know how we got on that topic but…
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think this is a good place for us to put a pit in it. Because…
Paul McCarthy:
Hey! Hey! Seven hours later, I agree
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, I knew going in of your reputation for having much to say. And, I love that. I’m a big fan of longer form conversations. I love a good conversation. And the only reason that I'm introducing a break here so that we might resume again another day is that, it's 9:30 here. I'm fading and…. I can imagine there's a comical vision in my head of me nodding off, and you're not realizing it for a while.
Paul McCarthy:
No [3:39:58-3:39:59].
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't want to do that to you.
Paul McCarthy:
It’s just 11:30 in the morning here for me and, when I… Oh, can you hear the sirens outside?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I can.
Paul McCarthy:
When I leave here, I have… I’m actually going at two ‘o clock over to meet up a friend of mine who runs the Judokan Karate Dojo here in Naha, and we're going to sit down, have a cup of coffee at arm's length, so to speak, and talk about something about something similar that we've been talking about here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you’re all warmed up.
Paul McCarthy:
Thank you for that, that was good. And listen, let me just say thank you once again for the opportunity to chat.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We’re definitely going to have you back if you're willing because…
Paul McCarthy:
Yeah, sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
there’s a lot more and, this gives me a ton of context for round 2 where we can unpack some of these other things in other ways.
Paul McCarthy:
If you don't mind what I will do [3:40:55-3:40:57] today. “Someone’s been talking online.” I will put together a little, an email and send it over to you with regards to a few people who I think would make a great dialogue, and have a very valuable contribution to the listeners. And not in as I say, I think there’s a larger picture about… There’s one thing about the fighting aspect of the fighting arts, but there’s another part about the living aspect. And I think, to coin a phrase, “A good teacher teaches a person how to defend themselves over a fight. A great teacher teaches a person how to live. “I first learned that quote from Richard Chamberlain’s, I don't remember the television series called Shogun. Oh, gosh. I would be probably that… would it be the late ‘70s or maybe very early ‘80s that... Dr. [3:41:53-3:41:54]. Richard Chamberlain starred as Anjin-san. He was the pilot of the ship, the black ships that came, that brought the Portuguese to Japan. 1543, there was the boat that landed at Tanegashima. In those days, the samurais used to kill all the foreigners when they arrived. But, this time they didn't because they had guns, so they had to learn how to make them and maybe on that note we'll leave that for another conversation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Paul McCarthy:
I will definitely mail my list of local candidates for you. And, [3:42:29:3:42:30]. Well, thank you very much and best of luck.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thank you. This was fun. You opened a lot of doors in my head. There are lots of dots to connect here and I’m going to have to go back and listen to this a couple times, I think.
Paul McCarthy:
Thanks for being so gracious. I really appreciate it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely, thank you. That was a bit of a marathon. And, just like at the end of running a marathon, we’re feeling it and it’s a good thing. Because of the amount of information, the knowledge that was dropped on today's episode, the things that just made my mind blow up a little bit as I thought about them. Pretty extensive. It's clear to me that McCarthy-sensei deserves the reputation that he has for being so profound in the work that he [3:43:17-3:43:18], and I look forward to connecting with him again, having him on the show again, and hopefully get into to meet up at some point. In real life, in the future. Thank you very much, Sir. I appreciate your time. You want more go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. That’s where you can find videos, links, social media pictures, and more. Not just for this episode, but for everyone we've ever made. If you're down to support us in all of our work, you have a few options: you can visit the store at whistlekick.com and use the code podcast16 to save 15%, or leave a review in your podcast player, buy one of our many books on Amazon, or help out the Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. If you see somebody out on the wild, wearing WhistleKick shirt, maybe a hat, make sure to say ‘Hello!’ If you have guest suggestions or other feedback, let me know. Jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social media accounts get a lot of activities and find us everywhere you might think of, @whistlekick. And that's all I've got for you today. Until next time! Train hard, smile and have a great day!