Episode 670 - Seargent Jason Hamilton
Sergeant Jason Hamilton is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor of self-defense for Law Enforcement Officers.
One of the things I feel like I have to explain to my students all the time is, I’m not teaching them this arm bar and wristlock because they are magic secret sauce that will overcome all things. I have to remind them, I’m actually teaching them these things so that they have something they can use to restrain an out of control 11-year-old with a knife or an out of control old grandma without getting hurt and without breaking them…
Seargent Jason Hamilton - Episode 670
On a rare episode, we have a comeback guest who did a Thursday show to do a Monday episode. Sergeant Jason Hamilton talked with Jeremy and Andrew on Episode 579 about using excessive force. Today, we have Sergeant Hamilton to talk more about his journey as a Police Officer, what he does as an instructor for the police force, use of force, and self-defense.
In this episode, Sergeant Jason Hamilton talks about his journey and passion for martial arts. Listen and join the conversation!
Show Notes
You may check out Sergeant Jason Hamilton’s episode here.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's going on everybody? Welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 670. My guest today is coming back to the show Sergeant Jason Hamilton. If you don't know my name, maybe this is your first episode. I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm a host for the show, founder here at whistlekick, everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. If you want to see everything we're doing, check out the newly redesigned whistlekick.com, and then find everything we've got going on over there, including our store, one of the ways that we monetize what we do, yes, we sell some stuff, and there's some good stuff. And if you find some good stuff that you want to pick up, well, you can use the code PODCAST15 to get yourself 15% off. The show has its own website, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. We bring you the show twice a week, and the goal of the show and really of whistlekick overall. Well, it's to connect, educate and entertain traditional martial artists throughout the world. If you want to support the work that we do, you can do a number of things. You can make a purchase, share an episode, follow us on social media we’re @whistlekick, everywhere you can imagine, you could tell a friend about us maybe pick up one of our books on Amazon, leave a review on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Google, Facebook, you name it, or you can support our Patreon, patreon.com/whistlekick. That's a place where we post exclusive content. And if you contribute as little as $2 a month, you're going to get some access. At two bucks a month, we're going to tell you who's coming up on the show. At $5, you're getting bonus audio and it goes up from there. It is very rare that people stop contributing to the Patreon. And at least part of that is because we deliver incredible value. If you have not checked out what is available at Patreon, please go check it out. patreon.com/whistlekick, it's not going to cost you anything to take a look. So go take a look.
And help ensure that this show sticks around back on episode 579. Andrew, when I talked with Sergeant Jason Hamilton, about appropriate use of force, there were some things coming out in the media and there were conversations about how much force was appropriate in the martial arts community. And Sensei Hamilton reached out to bring us on the show. It was a great conversation. Well, today we bring him back to do something we don't think we've done more than once or twice. A guest who came on for a topic is back to give us their story. And Sergeant Hamilton does just that; he tells us about his early passion for martial arts, and how he ultimately ended up in law enforcement. And of course, we talk a lot about the overlap. And what all of us as non law enforcement officers can learn from his experience. As such, stick around great conversation, and I'll see you in the outro. Sergeant Hamilton, welcome back to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio.
Jason Hamilton:
Hey, how's it going? Good afternoon.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Good afternoon to you. You know, I was thinking, just as I was saying, Welcome back. It is very, very rare that we do things and kind of the order we've done with you, you came on 579, so just about 100 episodes ago to talk about a subject but now we're bringing you on to tell you tell your story. Usually, we do the opposite. We've got plenty of examples doing the opposite. So, thanks for letting us do things out of order.
Jason Hamilton:
That's perfectly fine. I mean, I feel like we had a little bit of an intro to sort of who I am and why that was last time but I'm happy to talk in more detail about myself. I mean, not to sound egotistical, but I'm pretty interesting. So, I've done some cool stuff. Yeah. I was hoping for some derisive laughter.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are only two of us here and if I am laughing at you that doesn't leave much of a live audience to temper out that energy. Yeah, it's probably we've got to wait at least 20 minutes for you to start picking on you. Okay, okay. If we do that, the top knows where this is going to go. My friends started early and often picked on me. So, I can relate. We know people in common. I'm sure it's happening all across. Yeah, yeah. Well, last time when we had you on before, we were talking about it being titled that episode reasonable use of force was that. Yeah, what we call it I know that was the subject matter.
Jason Hamilton:
Yeah. We spoke a lot about the laws and sort of the legal processes around use of force and self-defense.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now, well, some people probably have a bunch of people who have not listened to that episode. So let's start here. I introduced you as Sergeant. You just said the word laws, you must be in law enforcement.
Jason Hamilton:
I am a sergeant who is a first line supervisor for a municipal police department in Vermont.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you are also a martial artist.
Jason Hamilton:
Yep. So, I was on with you and Andrew. The last time Andrew and I came up very similar. We came up with the same Dojo with the same lineage of Okinawan karate, and jiu jitsu. I started with Sensei Donohue in 2000, in 2001 and 2002. There so I'm a little bit ahead of Andrew in terms of my sort of total time. In that layout, we came up in exactly the same lineage from their life's took me in a lot of different directions. After I graduated from college, I moved to Japan. And so there was a fairly significant amount of training there in some other and unrelated martial art styles.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why? Well, that sounds like there's a story there.
Jason Hamilton:
Oh, well. So, the story about going to Japan was just bowels, a number of things. I was really, really, really into martial arts stuff. And that's turned into my degree in college. I majored in Japanese history, and the martial arts that I was practicing with Donohue was sort of half of my graduating project. And, as part of that, my professors, the college that I was attending, forced me to study Japanese. And I was terrible at it. As I have been terrible at every foreign language that I've attempted all throughout my life. I learned French grade school, middle school and high school, 11 total years and can't speak at all, never could never really get it. But they insisted, and I sat down to the classes and was pretty terrible at it, as we predicted, but it just became so frustrating that I couldn't get it that I decided that when I graduated, I would move to Japan and I would get fluent or die trying essentially.
So after graduating college, I took a job as an English teacher over there and started started studying obviously, martial arts being a big part of my background to that point, as soon as I got to Japan I started seeking out whatever training opportunities I could with centered on a huge blessing there and not a lot of it was particularly directly related to what I had been learning in America but mainly mean it's all sort of related somewhere back there, I guess. And we I sort of restricted to places around the areas that I can reasonably get to with the amount of time I had I was still working to support myself I could not afford to become just live in DC at a dojo someplace and make that my whole life so well, in part, I guess, a forbidden part just visa things you don't you know, just get to stay in Japan because you feel like writing martial arts pretty strict visa system. So it was just the sort of training I could dream of. So that was the idol. Which has been the thing that I was able to do the most consistently. And an Aikido group which was pretty close by? And Kendall, for about two years I was there and on and off.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm trying to find a question to ask here, because you're talking about this training in a very different way. Just even the tone in your voice, there's a very different way to you're talking about this than you talk, even though it was briefly about your other training, is that because it was intermittent? Or was there something? Is there something else there? Were you not finding what you wanted?
Jason Hamilton:
That is an interesting question. So not yet. I think you're hitting on something there. I wasn't directly finding what I wanted. There was certainly a lot of cultural importance to it, especially the eyeshadow and kendo that I was getting into practice with. I had a great time doing it and learned a lot about Japanese swords. That way helped inform my understanding of Japanese history, which, you know, since college is really more of a hobby than it is to never make money studying history or teaching it when none of it was particularly practically self-defense oriented. And to that point, my martial arts journey has been much more focused on practical techniques and conditioning. For the here and now for, you know, my life has been living it. So well, sort of engaging in the sport of kendo was a lot of fun, and sort of costume rituals, study of some of the tradition of Japanese scored both informative about culture that I've been studying, but don't really have a ton of, you know, real world ability to touch, taste and feel. It was really great. It didn't, it didn't have the same sense of immediacy that the training that I've been doing up to that point did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The training prior to training here in the States, had you sought out training of that kind? Or was that luck of the draw?
Jason Hamilton:
Oh, well, so I've been interested in martial arts since I was very, very little. I come from a family of pacifists. And that didn't really work for me to make sense. From a practical standpoint, from a philosophical standpoint, I didn't really agree with it, it never worked for me. So, my opportunities to engage with that material were very, very limited. And sort of as I got older, I was being a little bit more rebellious, not just in, you know, how I was thinking about this or talking about it, but actually being able to take some affirmative action on my own to study martial arts. I was sort of limited to, again, what was going on around me and I studied. I had a martial arts teacher that was coming to the high school that I went to, and teaching classes and I was always involved in those or as much as I could be. I went on a very sort of long winding journey through college. And the first college that I went to, I attended a kind of martial arts circle, but it had all kind of wound down, people weren't as serious about it.
The people that I had access to weren't as serious about it, as I think I needed, and so I encountered Donohue teaching at another college that I went to, and that was immediately the level of attention to detail, enthusiasm for it. The culture and the history of it, as well as the etiquette, the surrounding it and sort of the philosophical aspects of martial arts, what I'm hearing is there was something going back up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Over the course of years and hundreds of interviews, I've gotten a pretty good sense, just in the way someone talks about a school, whether or not they landed a school, that was the right school for them at that time doesn't mean that that doesn't change. But it sounds very clear that fortunately, this school you landed that just resonated with you. I can hear it in the tone of your voice when you talk about it.
Jason Hamilton:
Yep, no 100%. It was something that I was waiting to find that I didn't know that I was waiting to find. It was a level of energy input and discipline around the physical movement and conditioning and martial arts that I hadn't had to that point and didn't know that I was lacking, if that makes sense. I didn't know that I hadn't. I hadn't. That my enthusiasm for martial arts had waned, because of a lack of that was something that I did not grasp until I ran across sensei Donahue. And was immediately in love with these classes. And immediately in love with his teaching style, and the practicality of what we were learning and the philosophical background of it. And just everything about it really resonated with me. And so throughout the next fold was that 2001 graduated in early 2006. And that's when I also attained my show on so for the next five years, much of that time, I was somewhere in the neighborhood of 20 or 25 hours a week in the dojo.
Yeah. Just like totally immersed nerd level. Couldn't really get through life comfortably without having that input, and was really blowing off a lot. A lot of other things that other people at least thought were very important at the time, in order to do that. By the time I graduated, and I was like, I was born like, I wasn't working a full time job. I took out student loans that I probably didn't need in order to not have to work too much. Going through my last year of college. And the reason that I didn't afford myself enough time to work enough to support myself was because I needed to be okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I got to ask when you chose to go to Japan? This couldn't have been an easy decision.
Jason Hamilton:
No, no, um, but it became an inevitability pretty quickly. So, there was a moment when I was just being pushed into Japanese classes. And my final project for school, which was still about two and a half years away from being completed. Even in their timeline there, it took me longer than that. Was there this moment where, okay, well, I'm going to go to Japan for a semester or something like that, and that's going to come and get me over the hump here. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't make it. Work financially. Like none of the pieces of that plan ever came together and adjusted. I realized, kind of coming back to my studies after expending all this effort trying to get the Study Abroad. A thing happened, which I never did, that I can get through what I was supposed to get through in college without going, but I, my study, was never going to be complete. And it just became this kind of slow rolling, inevitable thing where I know I mean, I'm never going to be good enough in this language. Living here, like it's just never going to happen. So, it wasn't something anybody around me wanted.
For me it was pretty scary, a lot of likes, preparation and like putting affairs in order that I didn't do a great job of all the time. But it was just inevitable. Why did you come back? I promised my mom that I would come back. The most upset person about all of this in this stuff, at least ongoing, was my mother. So, I kind of had to lay out a plan for her. Like, I need to go to Japan, it's certain that I'm going to be there, I don't know how long fluency is going to take, I don't know what this is going to require of me. I don't even know how I'm going to measure this exactly. But when that is done, when I've hit whatever, whatever benchmark I can come up with, I will come back. And so, after I got there, it was immediately like finding places where Japanese people congregate and hang out there. So, a lot of going to bars. Japanese teachers involve myself in as many martial arts as I can, because I can make time for you and study. You know, during my other hours, and the school that I was teaching as a private, sort of after school for kids English teaching house. And I know a fair number of the people that work there, I would say maybe maybe 30 or 40%.
We’re studying Japanese actively and they were all taking they're measure their success. That was the sort of nationally recognized test for foreigners for Japanese language ability, then there was like, levels up from 4,3,2,1. And so I very quickly set my sights on. Well, if I can pass the top level of this test that will be enough. They don't make a harder test for foreigners' Japanese ability. So that'll mean that I can read and write and speak and listen well enough to communicate with anybody in the country. So that's where I set my sights. Actually getting there took me the better part of four years. And so we've sort of reached the end reached a moment where I now have to start to look to the promise that I've made to my folks that I would come home so from there it's kind of up in the air, like what am I I was a teacher you know, I've been teaching English and I went on to teach in a high school. Great job, just tons of free time. A lot of coworkers that I really got along well with and a great culture and free time at work to practice martial arts. lift weights, pursue other hobbies, translation and that sort of stuff.
So it's been pretty hard to pry me away from there. But I actually on a trip back visiting the States, I knew that I was kind of preparing to come home, but like the sort of momentum that you've built up in a particular job for particular time where you, you have the schedules, and you know what's going to happen, this time in that time, and this day of that week, and that sort of stuff. I could definitely see myself getting stuck, just grinding out day after day after day. But I came back over a summer vacation, and went back to my dojo, and that was Sensei, and just sat and talked for God and an hour, hour and a half after class that he taught. And he reminded me that I had been interested in law, that to the point of me, moving to Japan, to that point in my life, the sort of academic pursuits, and just studying and practicing and training martial arts weren't really enough in my mind that I wanted some more real-world experience and that I wanted to find a way to contribute to the world that use some of those skills.
So, he sorts of like, put that back on my plate, like, what, what happened to this because I, at that point, you know, years in Japan, flute and Japanese, a bachelor from pretty good college, and you know, that the whole that stuff stacked up to sort of looking like, well, why don't I go to some sort of graduate school and become a professor. And Sensei was pretty, pretty harsh. For me, it's pretty clear to me. That doesn't sound like what you want. That doesn't sound like where you were looking to go with your life. And I mean, using some of the skills that you've come across here, but it's not the real you, I don't think. So, I kind of took that home to Japan with me. And molded over and started applying to police jobs and started sort of looking into what that was going to require. I had done some of the steps of initial hiring processes before but so I had some experience with it. But I sort of got further into that. And I was almost like, applying was on board. And like I was ready to head home, my wife was applying for a visa. And a friend that I had made at the English teaching school that I was at. Who had he from Hawaii, he had gone back home to get his master's in Japanese business, and had been since then, interning at Reebok in Japan, comes to me and says, hey, I know you know CrossFit.
I mean, you do this training, the physical training, and we speak Japanese. What would you say, to help us open a gym? And so, they sort of roped me back in for a year or two. absolute dream job, right? Like, oh, so we're going to pay you. We're going to pay you more money than you've ever gotten before at any job. more money than you're getting right now by like, 50%. And yeah, we're going to pay for a whole bunch of certifications in CrossFit stuff I'm already doing. And then you're going to run a physical training program for us in a gym that we're opening. sort of hard to say no. I'm So as I stayed an extra year after that we were really on point coming on and stayed an extra year after that, sort of, we got the gym open. And that's when I headed back. And sort of got all the way into police work.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was that an easy transition? I don't mean physically or logistically, but emotionally, it sounds like, you know, even though we started talking about Japan, from this angle there was a piece missing. It's also clear that there was a missing piece that you went there to find. And it sounds like you found it. You know, yeah, you talked about this. This job, this gym job, where it checks a lot of boxes, and they throw some good money at you. But I didn't get the sense that you took it reluctantly.
Jason Hamilton:
No, no, I mean, it was impossible to say no. Like, well, in Japan, I went pretty far down the rabbit hole of health, nutrition, and fitness, which had come to me or come to be for me, another part of self-defense is sort of when I was living in Japan, and I was in three and at times for different martial arts practices, depending on when everybody met, and what various gyms and if I could make it on my little bicycle, and not get run over. But I was gaining weight and was pre fat for a little bit there. And it just occurred to me that my fitness level was a hole in my game.
And my general basic level of strength and just sort of capacity was another hole in my game. I'm both I mean, at the time, I think I was probably younger and still thinking in terms of like, well, yeah, I mean, being strong is a pretty big advantage, like, I couldn't be stronger, I would be stronger, there's really no, doesn't take anything off the table.
So, I became very, very involved in trying to lose weight. And that led me down this whole rabbit hole of food and sleep and just a bunch of sort of self experimentation, and then that also sort of shunted me towards different ways of thinking about exercise that tied up with CrossFit. And so those were, you know, that stuff became a big passion of mine. And yeah, I mean, I was kind of in the thick of it, maybe maybe sort of cresting past the ultimate peak of my interest in that stuff. But still, you know, very involved and very sort of sucked into setting personal records in the back squat, and you know, running cone drills faster than I had before and that sort of stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't know if you know, I also went pretty deep across it for about a decade.
Jason Hamilton:
Awesome.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I also held quite a number of CrossFit certifications, but put a lot of time and money into that and found a lot of synergy with martial arts and the folks who were listening who are familiar with the training programs that we've developed came 100% From where I saw those things intersecting.
Jason Hamilton:
I mean, I don't know that we need to spend a whole bunch of time on this but yeah, I was super amazed at how well CrossFit tied itself to exactly what martial arts conditioning really was. The real quality is the martial arts. The kind of conditioning that you get in a dojo is after I was just a bit but that was sort of its latches into me. Like, oh, so being generally physically prepared, you know, for a whole bunch of different tasks. Yeah, that sounds like kind of what I'm after here. Yeah, exactly. So now I can pay. If I can ask what certifications Did you hold? Obviously, other than level one?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, geez. One two Olympic Gymnastics. Oh, there was one more there, defense. Oh, was that [35:28-35:40]?
Jason Hamilton:
Um, yeah Awesome. That's awesome.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I did you striking but I was the only one there was a very brief window where there was a CrossFit striking program all signed up and had my flight everything and they called me and they're like, so we've canceled the program. They cancelled the class and it was like, but, but why? Well, you're the only one who signed up.
Jason Hamilton:
Oh, sad.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, I made it.
Jason Hamilton:
Awesome. Yeah, they sent me, they paid for me and sent me to pay for my flight and all that stuff to get out to get my level one. But we didn't really do much else in terms of certification. Some judges stuff and this or else they needed for me and the guys that I was working with to teach them agenda, but not much more.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's possibly fast forward a hair. Because you use you set this kind of foreshadowing a little bit. Yeah, we're sitting with your sensei here in the US. And he brought up the law. And you said you started applying for law enforcement jobs. And we already talked to the topic called you, Sergeant and we kind of kind of gave it away. Yeah, that at some point, you found your way in there. So, what did that transition into that career look like?
Jason Hamilton:
Well, um, I couldn't apply for, you can't apply for law enforcement jobs, except in person. There's no remote stuff. There are no remote tests that you could do. There's no like none of that stuff if they need to see you do the pushups. They need to see you looking in the eye across the table. They need to watch you do the written tests they want to monitor you and proctor you know, all the psychological tests and all of that stuff. You can't do a polygraph over the phone. So, I had to move back to the States. And that was a super tough transition really, culture shock. I've been back. Yeah, about once a year, twice every three years kind of thing for the seven years that I was in Japan, but I still like being here all the time. It's not just you're not a tourist, we're all the roads are wide. And the mountains are often the distance and stuff. You're actually now like back here living and trying to make it all work.
So, there's a segment called culture shock there and my wife couldn't come with me when I moved. Because it was just like all of a sudden, the year was over. And we hadn't continued her visa process. So, she had a whole bunch of wind down stuff with the company that she was working for, that she had to do. And she had to get her visa squared away, which she had to stay in Japan for so I had about six months here. She visited once. Before he or she moved. And yes, just throughout that time, I was doing more CrossFit training. So training people at a local gym, and teaching. Just teaching as a substitute teacher and using those things to keep some money coming in while I applied to police jobs and police application.
The application process for police officers itself is incredibly long. So we've got you've always got some sort of in person, paper test, generally. Some sort of, you know, basic logic, reading comprehension, math skills, that sort of stuff. physical tasks, which is just, you know, a battery of standard Cooper, fitness standard stuff. So, bench press on a machine and do some push ups and some setups and some running. And then from there, reschedule, you come in another day, potentially weeks down the road to do an oral board which is essentially an interview but sort of like a put you on the spot, really you kind of interview. And then you're weeks out from there meeting with the person doing your background investigation and asking you many questions. You go away, they bring you back Ask, ask a bunch more questions.
And eventually you get a polygraph on that. So it's a long, long, long process to actually be hired as a police officer. So I spent all of that time muscle and about whatever other jobs, mostly the substitute teaching and training people in the gym was actually hired. We must have taken Gosh, I don't know, six, seven of these tests. So the PT test and the written test were invited back. Massachusetts sort of a complicated one was just a written test. And then your test scores go out to all sorts of PDs and if someone wants you wants to start talking to you more they call Yeah. But everywhere else was a written test, a physical test. All right, coming back to your oral boards must have been like six, six different processes, and a lot is eventually hired by somebody. And off to the races we go, so to speak, right. Now, you know, you mentioned what that testing looks like. And just from conversations we've had on this show and friends that I've had in various law enforcement positions.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's very little done, really, to my knowledge, no combatives evaluation before being hired, that stuff happens as part of your training protocol.
Jason Hamilton:
Yep. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So, I can imagine coming in with all the experience that you had, that was probably both an asset, but also a liability, because I'm guessing they wanted you to do things in a certain way that maybe was counter to what you would experience and understand.
Jason Hamilton:
Yep. So, I'm... How I go out and out of playing this. Yeah, I started with a fairly extensive martial arts background, but I was then in need of our karate style, and I was, you know, stuck at an academy with once a week, eight hours combative, I guess you'd say are use of force classes. And I mean, at that point in time with the amount of experience that I had, nothing they were teaching was new. But a lot of it was done in some very, very, sort of bizarre ways or ways that I wasn't used to seeing very often and then you know, you're sort of reverting to your training habits. And there was a steep learning curve for me to unlearn the kind of basic movements and relearn them in a pattern that was going to suit them well enough.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can you give an example?
Jason Hamilton:
So, I want people to take this to generally my work with the approved use of force or non-lethal use of force curriculum for the state of Vermont. So, in that curriculum, they is an armbar, takedown and EQ for, you know, an aikido practitioner or traditional Japanese jiu jitsu practitioner, but just follow the principles are, the principles are all, of course exactly the same, but we're put in this hand versus those hands, we're going to do X,Y and Z, differently, the movement is different, your foot is going to be here relative to their foot, and their relative to that foot. This ends up on the ground over here, not over there, that sort of thing. was sort of tough, right? Because I learned EQ.
From a very particular perspective, it was sort of more an exploration of the way it was taught in a couple of different digits, an aikido practices and had a lot more open endedness to it, where with I mean, and with all police uses of force, like there is a defined endpoint here, we are getting to a very particular position. And we're using that to handcuff them, potentially the end is the person's got to be in handcuffs, there's no, like, there's no other ending here. I learned, you know, 1,000,001 different finishes for people on the ground that were from various styles. And now, for police work, we're just filling from whatever situation we started in to this person being in handcuffs, and so some of the steps to that point and even carrying handcuffs, and where the handcuffs are going to be located, and how you're going to access them how you need to hold them all have fairly substantial influence on the techniques that you're using, even if the principles are the same.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. Yeah. I get that.
Jason Hamilton:
I mean, I took it like it shouldn't. I feel like people might get the impression that being a martial artist was somehow a disadvantage.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's not what I'm getting. I mean, maybe somebody out there is thinking that, but that's not what I'm hearing. Is this in your thought process anyway, kind of this intersection of a whole bunch of things that you were passionate about?
Jason Hamilton:
Yes, that is certainly true. That is certainly true. And to sort of jump back towards the motivations around being in police work I was. I just started with a lot of criticisms of police work that I'd seen to that point in my life. I felt like police were frequently unnecessarily authoritative, condescending, rude, meaning sort of, in my experience, had been unnecessarily kind of robotic and inhuman. And I felt like, well, that really could be done better than it's being done. And if, while you're thinking that, first of all, self reflection, you don't know, what's going on with these things, or why the police officers are doing the things the way they're doing them, like, you're not a police officer, you don't have any of that experience or any background in it to really be judgmental.
So, maybe instead of, maybe, if you're going to have criticisms, you have to learn what's actually going on there and see whether or not you still have those criticisms, when you're done learning what's actually going on. And then two, if I have these criticisms, that I remain with these criticisms, while I still think police work is necessary in the world, and I think it's an important job that could be improved. Why don't I put my money where my mouth is? I couldn't think of a reason not to sort of marry up with some of the attributes I thought that I had, thinks that I have and yeah, just sort of took off from there, put your money where your mouth is, man.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Through this time, were you doing any? Let's call it traditional martial arts training.
Jason Hamilton:
So, you're speaking of my time in the academy?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. What I'm wondering is if, you know, because before you went to Japan 25 hours a week. Yeah. And this, this approach, this academy, this use of force stuff, you gave some examples of where it's conflict might be too strong of a word, but it's, they're not one in the same. And I'm wondering, where is your thought process at least on what you had done historically, as traditional arts, how that kind of fit into the mix?
Jason Hamilton:
Um, well. So, I mean, I did and do continue to appreciate the martial arts, I think. The world of self-defense is, it's, it's a lot more complicated. And there's a lot more to it than basic line police officers are learning in an academy setting. Like it's all well and good for us to have this incredibly broad diverse curriculum of movements for people that are attending a martial arts school for 5-10 hours a week. But it's not practical for police officers that have to work. And use this stuff on a daily basis, have to abide by legal strictures, and so like, some, some techniques are not going to be practical from a legal I'm not going to legal, essentially, not practical to learn from a legal standpoint, because of the restrictions on your ability to use them. Some of them are not going to be practical because of gear and equipment. Right? Not, we're not just in trunks, you know, any Gi or, you know, walking around with a lot of stuff. Not all of it, a very little of it really directly related to any kind of nonlethal, your sports martial arts movements.
So, the use of force curriculum for police officers is very, very pared down and reflects things that we think we can safely teach officers to do that they will develop a reasonable level of confidence, confidence and competence with that are going to keep them safe, and keep them from really unnecessarily hurting people in the performance of their duties. So traditional martial arts and traditional martial artists have a much, much broader as much broader world that we're in. Sure, there's just the whole world of movements that don't make sense for police officers wouldn't be legal police officers fees, or we're just not confident that, you know, guys that are mandated for hours of use of force training a year are really going to ever be to have enough training to be good. I mean, there's very basic handcuffing techniques that I can't seem to get my guys to do correctly. With training scars, where, like we've, we've done it wrong enough times that I didn't die that time. So I'm going to do it again now. And just not enough, not enough hours, not enough time under tension to really alter some of those pathways.
It's one of the things I feel like I have to explain to my students, my students in our police officers that I'm teaching them the use of force curriculum. One of the things I feel like I need to explain to them all the time is like I'm not teaching you this armbar, I'm not teaching you this wrist lock, because they are magic secret sauce that is going to overcome all things. And if your technique is absolutely perfect, you're going to make this work, no matter who the other person is. Lot of them come to it with, that's never going to work on me, it says a lot of sort of macho, big, tough kind of perspective on it. And to remind them, I'm actually teaching you this so that you have something that you can do to restrain the out of control.
11 year old with a knife without getting caught. And without breaking them. You can restrain grandma from getting out of control, swinging her chair around or something without breaking her. Concern is not that I'm going to break this person, but rather this person is going to break me. We're not like most of the stuff that we use on a daily basis. Is this not going to be that we're going to be raising our level of force quite a bit and starting to use tools and that sort of thing. Did I get that I was kind of far afield? I sort of feel like I wanted a little. It's a wandering topic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because I've not been in the shoes that you're in. So the questions that I'm throwing at you are coming from a place of being informed they're coming from a place of wondering. Yeah, you're doing just fine. You're doing great. And, of course, you know, to wrap it back around, you know, we talk pre show we talked last time you and I talked, talked even a bit at the beginning, that this is this is a subject where your passion lies, you know, we've kind of gone in a number of different directions. But I think we had to get there for people to fully understand why not only are you passionate about doing this work, teaching this subject matter to law enforcement.
But why were you able to come at it with a different perspective? Yeah, I was having a conversation with someone, I think it was all I don't know if it was on an episode or anyway, it was recently. And we've said this before, there are two kinds of people, there are people who advance martial arts and there are people who pass on martial arts. But you could apply that to any subject matter or any material that one learns. I would imagine most people who are teaching, the things you are teaching are simply passing them on, they're taking what has been given to them, they are giving them to officers, officers hope that it works when they need it. But you came in with a whole different body of understanding and are bringing in your own. I don't know how much leeway they give you. But I cannot imagine that your own ideas and experience aren't informing at least how you're presenting this information.
Jason Hamilton:
So no, absolutely, absolutely. And that attention to the principles and also, I was in the academy learning to do an armbar in a way or with a number of steps that I hadn't practiced connecting before. And with sort of very particular performance demands involving what direction your toes are pointing and that sort of thing that I hadn't had before. But I had the principle. And so moving forward, having adapted my movement style to what my teachers in those classes wanted. Now with me teaching, I can go back to my students and present an armbar like, hey, we're doing this and these are the steps and you learn the steps in the academy. And I'm going to remind you of all the steps. And the principal thing that we're doing here is that it's here in here and it can be adapted to your situation a little bit more fluidly than you're thinking and sort of showing students the underlying principles was one of the things that was the thing.
Maybe the most central thing that since Donohue did for me that reengaged me, in seeing this up where it wasn't just a series of Kata and break, this is what it is, this is what it means and even those movements with the extra meaning being taught to you even sort of beyond that, here's what the principle is. Here's what happens to your musculoskeletal system when it is twisted in this direction. For example, and being passed on in that fashion, I think, is a lot more. It gives students a much better base for understanding what they're doing. Not just rote, not just monkey see monkey do. It's not just athletics.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a decent amount of crossover between martial arts and law enforcement, we have plenty of folks on over the years. Yeah, the fact is, most of the folks listening to the show aren't and never will be law enforcement. Now. So let me ask, what I know, you know, is not a disrespectful question. But if someone, if this is the first time they're listening, they're going to think, why should the average martial artist care about appropriate use of force?
Jason Hamilton:
I mean, if you don't care about using the force that you are learning about appropriately, why are you doing this first one? Like you could say, and I'm sure, maybe there's, there's somebody out there listening like, now I just, I just want to kick butt. And I want to learn to kick butt. Like, that's it. There's no, there's no other center to this. I don't really give a hoot about the rest of the world. But if you don't care about how force is being used, you don't care whether or not it's being used appropriately. You're kind of the bad guy. I hate to break the state to everybody. But like, there's no there's no care about whether or not the stuff is being used appropriately. We're probably not even talking about defense anymore. Right was self-defense is right in their self-defense, right there in the name. If we're just here, to kick butt and we don't care about whether or not sort of what goes into force is deciding whether or not using force is acceptable. We haven't gotten all the way there as moral people; I will allow for a gotcha. I've never examined that. I've never really thought it all the way through. I'm not a philosopher, I just, you know, I'm just here. We're learning about this stuff. But I mean I take it as axiomatic that how you use martial arts matters more than how good your technique is. And so can you go a little deeper on that?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, that's a strong statement.
Jason Hamilton:
I mean, you'd be hard pressed to find a mammal. It is in some ways violence. Right. They're all effective, add it to one degree or another. And so, humans being violent towards other humans or other or other animals is not something revolutionary martial artists didn't invent. We're studying part of the process of getting better at this. It was always taught to me that I should be learning when and where and how to use it, in part, because I think martial arts teachers have an obligation to society to be training people to be good citizens. But also, if we're teaching people self defense, anti social behavior, like anti social violence is not actually going to defend them or make their lives better, it's going to make their lives worse. Not just because, you know, there are consequences from guys like me out there for, you know, anti social violence, but also because people don't want to hang out with you. And one of the things that we as humans need is companionship, you're not going to live a happy, fulfilled life without it. And if no one can stand to be around you, because you're a violent jerk. You're doing a poor job of defending yourself, no matter how good and violence you are.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I'm just wondering, you know, cuz we got to start winding down here. But it's such a critical subject, and there's a bit of an obvious answer. For folks listening, if they want to go deeper, you know, you can go back to 579, when Andrew and I had the pleasure of talking to you, and digging into this subject. But what about the experiential component? What about because you've got plenty of time in a dojo, where, you know, I'm sure at 25 hours a week, you had plenty of time to dictate some of your own training. But you know, as well as I do, and everyone else that, you know, if the instructor says we're doing it in this way, you're doing it in this way. But I can't imagine there are a few people whose interest has not been piqued, especially with that strong moment challenge that you issued. How might you suggest they take steps into understanding where those lines are?
Jason Hamilton:
Well, in terms of just as a normal academic study, I would say, the resources are out there for folks to just dig into the topic and noodle around on it and, and make sense of it. Just I mean, the most basic law of the land, laws of the land, you know, what, what self defense is, just, as I told you guys, last time mostly contained in jury instructions, actually not not in not in actual laws. The reasonableness standard comes out of Graham V. Connor. So people can look up that case and the legal meaning of it. So a federal case. And there's, there's a ton of sort of modern academic resources that are out there freely available to anybody. But I would say that beyond that. As I mentioned before, martial arts training should incorporate this philosophical component. And I think, most do, most if not all, do. We're not not in martial athletics. We're not just kind of having fun. Not just an MMA gym, not just a boxing gym.
Your Dojo is a different place and traditional martial arts. Everywhere that I've been in every seminar that I've been to learning side by side with teachers who are adding to what our instructors tell us or watching instructors and how they lead, they're their pupils through third party instruction. And in my own Dojo every, every place, I've been to every Dojo.
I visited here and in Japan. It's all done the good work of getting people steeped in this in the philosophies, the philosophies that spring up around the practice, Sensei Donohue, would say very frequently, that it was always true that understanding martial arts made for more peaceful people. He talked about his Sensei, who was in the Vietnam War, and his experience with some very, very highly trained athlete soldiers in the American military there. And famous quotes from well known martial artists and teachers all across the world. Get at the same thing martial arts should make for a more peaceful person.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think that's as dramatic a statement as we can make about martial arts training. We say on the show quite often that I believe I know Andrews on board, as well. That even six months of martial arts training makes someone better and helps them become a better version of themselves. But if we look at martial arts from the lens of personal development, personal growth, which I do, I don't know what you do. I know many of our listeners do. What does become an inevitable aspect of that growth to become more peaceful? Well, you know, it seems so counterproductive, and then no matter what angle, whether you go into it by looking at statements from law enforcement or military, whether those are soldiers or special forces. They all know, not everyone. But it is easy to find people talking about essentially the same thing that it requires competency in violence, to truly appreciate and strive for peace.
Yeah, it's a choice. You know, it's that line, better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener on a battlefield. Yep. So many ways we could take that. And so now, as we wind down and this is where you are, in your journey with your understanding of your experience as both martial artists, and not only law enforcement, but an instructor of law enforcement in one of the aspects that relates to both subjects. If you were to go back, if you were to talk to you, when you were younger, you know, a few years in you started to have some capacity for violence. Are there things that you might tell yourself that those of us listening to you might be able to wrap our heads around that may inform our training or understanding our why?
Jason Hamilton:
Wow. That is an enormous question. We've got to go bigger, go bigger. No. Man, young me was not good at a lot of things, including thinking nobody was not great at thinking and spent a lot of time thinking was what he thought was cool. Or thinking with various non brain body parts. And sure, I liked him to knock that off though. I suspect the mistakes made in those ways were part of the journey and sort of indispensable if I could have gotten me to serious, disciplined, intensive, immersive martial arts, where it was being taken seriously, earlier on, nothing but good things would come from that. Really, all of my lack of direction in life, all of my laziness, all of my sort of follow the whims of today for today, and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow, all of that stuff. But I didn't really know I was doing all of the self-destructive, addictive habits.
I was able to overcome them all to the extent that I have and become a significantly better person. Just by getting my martial arts training. It's really like I could point to 101 different influences and people and things that I've seen people that I looked up to and nothing, nothing, nothing's instrumental. It was instrumental in making me into a better person. I mean, there's just no comparison. And yeah, I mean, I spend a lot of good time at a lot of good schools. High school, college, and a lot of good time around very, very smart people tried to encourage me to think and try to show me how, but it really took sensei Donohue in his practice, to turn that crank over to start the engine of sacrificing what I wanted right now for who I wanted to be in the future. So, I don't know. Can I make it pithy highly to a good Dojo without?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe, you have approached in a few different directions there, which means it's going to lay differently for different people, and I'm sure you reached more of them in that way.
Jason Hamilton:
Yeah. Like, that was the advice that I needed. Young me, a bad decision maker was never going to get past those flaws, those character flaws. Without the experience that I had, it just wasn't going to happen. It's a lot to unpack there. Yeah. My encouragement to people listening is that there are likely parts of this if not the whole thing. If you're listening, if you're feeling like you want to go deeper, like there's more like you need more, listen to it again. Severe your podcasts, just everyone? Don't doesn't cost extra, in this case, still free.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If people want to get messages to you, is there a way we can do that without putting out there too far? Should they route them through us?
Jason Hamilton:
Sure. Yeah, I mean, I confess that as I sort of looked around it, that looked down on my schedule for this recording today. I was, you know, how yeah, so while we were laughing, we left off when I went back to you know, the things that I noted in our last conversation and I sort of had this now a couple of things. We didn't go over this. We didn't talk about whether I had this other story to tell or whatever. I didn't know I was going to talk about myself quite so much. And I sort of wasn't sure if we were going back to those notes. Or if you wanted me to talk to myself for work, there's some other questions in particular that you had. But I thought that it might be fun sometime in the future. If people have questions for a resource like me, I'm happy to sit down with you guys and answer those or do my best to answer them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, I think I think that would be good. That kind of gives us like three parts. Series, in a sense. So let me do that. To all the listeners. Let me challenge you. Are there questions on this subject that you want to ask Sergeant Hamilton? Email Jeremy@whistlekick.com. Let's collect a number of them. Of course, we would get them to him ahead of time, we would not do what Andrew does to me on the Q&A episodes, we wouldn't ambush him with those questions. But I think that could be really informative. And interesting. I certainly have a number of questions that I could ask. So start emailing me, and we'll get those together. And we'll figure that out.
Jason Hamilton:
I'm sorry about that. One thing, I'll say about that, despite my position, and this, despite, you know, being a police officer and a supervisor, and he's fourth instructor, I fairly steadfastly keep my head and my nose out of the news about questionable police uses of force around three.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes, now, we won't step into anything. Is that any of that?
Jason Hamilton:
Well, no. So, I'm happy to answer questions about stuff like that. I don't want to answer questions about that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because of that nobody, somebody is always unhappy.
Jason Hamilton:
Yes, I am generally going to be unhappy with those things.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I don't want to do episodes where we know half the people are going to be yes.
Jason Hamilton:
Okay. What I was going to say is that if people I stepped on, I keep myself away from most things, because, frankly, ah, I mean, I don't sleep very well at night. When I expose myself to too much of that stuff, and it's just my health, it's not good for my own personal self-defense. So, if at some point, people are going to start asking me questions about what do you think of what happened in this case? Or you know, that guy and what did you see in this video? I want to hear about that ahead of time? Because I try not to watch the news. I mean; I'm trying to keep my blood pressure someplace reasonable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't believe it. Yeah. Yeah. You're not believe me at all. I get it. As I guess, as much as I can, not being in your position.
Jason Hamilton:
Yeah. I have to worry about signing off on our uses of force when we have them. And that is plenty. Let it be plenty.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, well, we'll talk and certainly, Andrew and what with we'll figure something out, but folks listening. Yeah, if you've got questions, there's stuff that we could bring to Sergeant Hamilton. I think that could be a really cool episode. And so yeah, send me some stuff. Let's close up. So final words. You know, this doesn't have to be poignant or pithy or come from any particular direction. But, you know, I'll record an outro later that will stack on top of the so what are your final words? You know what the people have heard today? Because you said it. Do you want to close out with them?
Jason Hamilton:
Well, thank you for listening to me talk. I'll be talking about myself because it was interesting to other people. I hope I didn't come off as too egotistical despite the fact that I'm a little bit egotistical. I don't know. Yeah. So I think those are pithy, poignant advice that I have here. Other than that, I guess. Be attentive to what you're using your martial arts for. Keep in mind what the training is there for what it's supposed to be doing for you. What is it adding to your life? And why is it doing it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really appreciate Sergeant Hamilton coming back and being willing to talk more not only on the subject we had him on for 579 talking about force and violence and such. But more so getting to know a bit about him. I think it's really important for us to understand how martial arts can set us up for so many things. It's almost like whatever you do martial arts makes it better or prepares you better, or, in a lot of cases opens doors that may not have been opened prior. Thanks for coming on again. I hope we get to connect in person soon. And thank you for what you do.
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And don't forget we've got four really well thought out amazing training protocols for martial artists. Guess what? I wrote them and got some help. But most of them came from my understanding of my research and my teaching over decades. If you want to get stronger or faster or more flexible or build your conditioning, go to whistlekick.com. Check out our training programs. Don't forget also we've got that code PODCAST15, gets 15% off. Yes it works on those training programs. And of course if you have guest suggestions, topic suggestions, feedback in general if you want to reach out, get at me Jeremy at whistlekick.com. Until next time, train hard, smile and have a great day.