Episode 674 - Sifu Tommy Given

Sifu Tommy Given is a Martial Arts practitioner and instructor at the Green Mountain Martial Arts Club.

When I teach, I say this all the time: there’s no such thing as bad art, just a bad artist...

Sifu Tommy Given - Episode 674

What could a giraffe and this martial artist have in common? Sifu Tommy Given, who started to train at his local boy’s club, fell in love with Martial Arts when he was invited to train in Kung Fu at the age of 10. Presently, in the spirit of his childhood boy’s club, Sifu Tommy Given has an outreach for Martial Arts where he teaches for free at the Green Mountain Martial Arts Club in Vermont.

In this episode, Sifu Tommy Given talks extensively about his Martial Arts outreach and his journey as a martial artist. Listen and join the conversation!

Show Notes

You may check out Sifu Tommy Given’s outreach at Green Mountain Martial Arts Club.

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Hey, Sifu, Welcome to whistlekick Martial Arts Radio. 

Tommy Given:

Oh, great to be here. It's nice to hear from you, Jeremy. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. Always good to talk to you. You know, you're an example of someone who I don't usually talk to people for as long or as much as I've talked to you before they end up on the show. This is just how it happened. And you know, it's not good, it's not bad. It's just it is. And I'm glad we're, I mean, on my end, you know, this feels overdue, so thankfully, you're willing to come on. 

Tommy Given:

Y'all, thank you. I listen to podcasts. I've listened to a few of them more than once, because of the guests that you've had, and, you know, I'm excited to be here. I definitely know you in other areas, too, from whistlekick. And from, you know, the social media, meeting your person, two people in common together and that kind of thing. provoked Mountain Boys. But, yeah, this is, I think it's overdue as well, you know, it's great.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Well, you know, I've got, I don't know if everybody organizes information this way. But a lot of times when I think about people, I think of things, I organize things in a timeline, and I've got these bits for you. And I know, you know, certain windows into the training elements of your life. And, you know, I know so little about the beginning. Okay, and so, let's just do it. Let's go there. Let's go back. And sometimes I like this as a visual, if we like, and I think you'll appreciate this one more than maybe some people if we were going to make a comic book for your life. Right. And it's about your journey as a martial artist. But what happens in the first issue?

Tommy Given:

Okay, so yeah, that is a great intro. It is. The comic book is, oh, I love it. Um, so I was that kid that actually walked down to the dimestore, it's old. And bought comic books. And they came out in the second week of the month. And, you know, they weren't even mail order yet. And so, that was pretty good. I had when spider man came out, you know, I was that kid that was like, Oh, my God, I gotta go. So, but, first issue would be a young boy in the inner city, and it was in New Britain, Connecticut, and Bristol, Connecticut went back and forth. My parents split up when I was young. And my father thought it was a good idea that I would, you know, get some kind of training, I was fairly athletic. So I was playing baseball, and midget football and that kind of thing. And then one day, the local boys club used to take in the kids after school, and then parents would pick you up when they got out of work there, whether that be five, six o'clock, that kind of thing and then go home. And that's was, you know, kind of, I guess today they call that like a lock key thing or latch key thing, but it was all the boys in the area when the boys came into Girls Club was down the road. And they were very similar. 

And you would play basketball and or go swimming and organized volleyball, indoor baseball, and all that kinds of stuff. Well, one day I turned around, and this you know, I was so worried, a very handsome, young African American kind of gave me a shove. And I turned around this, this six foot 200 pounds solid muscle guy says hey, you and me. He said, “Listen, you're fairly athletic. I like how you move in. Would you want to try some Kung Fu?” And I was like, You mean, like the movies and that kind of thing. And don't forget how cool it was on TV then. So as a series I was about 9/10 years old. And he said, yeah, he will come here tomorrow. So I went to the first class and fell in love. And he was one of Griffin's Iron Dragons, you know, the famous Kempo school. He was a student of Iron Griffin and I started like kung fu right there, and at the boys club going every day after school, and I loved it from day one. And then that would be the first issue. It was for a boys club event. It was fairly organized, more and level organizing what I had at home, that's for sure. And but that's, that's what started. That was my first love. And he was a cross trainer before there was such a thing. I mean, we did not only Kung Fu, but we did some Kenpo Karate, we did some judo. He was a military guy. So we did some all kinds of calisthenics. And he really was very hard disciplined. But a great guy. And that was for a good five years, six years until I was, you know, well into high school. So, that would be the first issue

Jeremy Lesniak:

You said that your father wanted you to have some training? Was there a conversation where he said, you know, I want you to do this, like Rock Blitz.

Tommy Given:

That was not to put it bluntly, that biker was in the one percenter lifestyle and he just wanted his kids kind of tough. And I wasn’t athletic, but I was also a bookworm. And kind of sickly, and I wasn't as strong as you know, maybe he would have liked that kind of thing. But he also thought that I would be really good at, you know, the Kung Fu type or Karate martial art. Chopsocky, he would call it you know, that kind of thing. So, that was a tough old Irishman. I mean, he was old school, Mom was Native American. So there were some culture clashes at times there. But they both agreed that the discipline would have done me. Well, I had like zero fear. As a kid I was one of those kids matter of fact, actually told the story today, and my teacher gym class sector at a local private school up here. And when I was about nine years old, we went to the Catskill game farm. And they had these, you know, the animals here, and people were feeding the giraffes, and the giraffes had their heads over the fence. 

And I will never allow this today. And I had like a waffle cone. So I'm feeding the giraffe and I'm taking the bath mat. I want to hug this thing. So I bring the waffle cone closer to my chest, the draft puts his head down, I put my arms around the draft to give it a hug, and just stainless it's in there I go, boom, straight up into the air, people are freaking out, there's cameras going, you can hear it, you know. And my father just gets hot as my kid. So he walks underneath the period, he goes, Tommy, let go. And I let go and he catches me. So, but that's my poor mother.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And there's the cover, the first issue is you hang it off the ground dangling from the draft.

Tommy Given:

So you know, um, and that was me, you know, I had, you know, my poor mother. So you know, God bless her, out of the house, she did it. But that was me. You know, so the training really, they thought would help my dad, you know, was you know, Vietnam there. So that kind of judo was already well rooted. Kung fu was coming back to karate, and Taekwondo had taken a really good foothold in the country. So it was you know, it was also the right timing as well where martial arts was, you know, gaining popularity or was a good alternative. And it welcomed anybody that was a thing to baseball. You couldn't catch the ball right away you got caught you know, in football if, you know, would book drop the ball in like defense or didn't like getting hit you know, you didn't play it was no different world back then. You know, they pick you know, a lot of kids got cut from teams that probably should have got a lot of tries where martial arts didn't do that. You know, we sent it to Smarty, right? The best advice I ever got was [00:09:42-00:09:44] you know, no matter what, you know, shape you're in, physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually. You're walking to that next class and I don't really know too many avenues where that's true where such a dichotomy of people can fit in, in one room, right, from different backgrounds, you know, so even churches not that diverse in many areas where as a martial arts school martial arts school, you can be sitting next to a millionaire's kid. And the other one could be, you know, working three jobs to pay rent, you know, and you're equal to your friends. You're hanging out, you're getting sweaty together, you're bleeding together, you're working, you know, somebody who came against your school at a tournament did not know that was like brothers, brothers. So that kept me there, too. And dad thought that was good for me. And he was right. It's definitely right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That you put a timestamp on it. You said four or five years or so? Yeah, he said, until you were well into high school, did something change at that point?

Tommy Given:

Got a couple of things changed. I was going back and forth between Connecticut and Vermont. Like I said, my parents were divorced and I found myself in a little town in terrible Connecticut. And you know, I lost by school, you know, it was quite a distance. And boy, I was driving. I had to have a car. Yeah. So but I was, and there's a lot of things I've done in the boxer flip Police Athletic League as a kid. I wrestled and that kind of thing. So in high school, I went out for the wrestling team. And no ended up being captain of the team. And I was pretty good and that kind of thing. But I was still missing something. And then I met another teacher that taught in the next town over, but he was willing to get me rideshares to get to those classes. So then I started Kempo karate. And it was more on the Kenpo side, the Kung Fu side. But he was an [00:11:58-00:12:00] Student. 

So, the journey changed at that point. And I was in a nap for quite a while. So, I graduated high school. And that was a lot of fun. And then I moved out to California, went to college, dropped out of college and became a lifeguard in beach palm. And then I looked up another campus school and Aikido school out there. And that was that experience that came in from that. So, I was already starting a plethora of different arts in trying to get well rounded. And it was getting pretty good. And I loved it, there was something I could not get enough. And for a while there, I was working to pay for my lessons. And then I worked out with different teachers where I could work at the school, and help pay for, you know, my teaching and that kind of thing. And that's when I started working with the kids on that day, you know, I was young. 

So that was what was like for me in there that would be issued, for sure that that whole change there and it happened fairly rapidly with you know, within four or five years. Because from, you know, 15 or so as a freshman in high school, to you know, college age, you know, then that's a quick time in your life anyway. So that was that. And then I did that for quite a while. And then for [00:13:32-00:13:34]. I played minor league baseball for a little while. But, you know, I knew I wasn't gonna make it to the big show in that way. So, you know, they had gone for years by speed. But then, I tried out when I came back home, I tried off to the east coast demo team and I made it. So the next you know, I'm traveling to a martial arts, you know, been paid to work out six hours a day. It was phenomenal. That was a good time to tell. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Tell us about that team. You know, I've heard the name but I want to say can't place... I don't think I could say anything about it other than I've heard of it.

Tommy Given:

Okay, so the [00:14:20-00:14:21] is a mixed bag. Chuck Berry actually coached it for a while. I know you've heard of him. And he was wonderful. Billy Blanks was on the team for a little short time. Steve and Dustin was on it. You know, he was one of those teams that guys went to and they wanted to learn and see other arts and we traveled all over from little gyms, to stadiums, and it was a time when a lot of other teams are in their full glory. You had the Paul Mitchell team going, we had the Budweiser team going and there were a lot of teams that never made the upper [00:15:00-00:15:01] had people that did, you know, spend time there. And that was wonderful about it as well. And I got to learn how to, you know, be competitive in any kind of tournament imaginable. And I tried it, I was that Daredevil, I would go to a BJJ tournament and get killed. But I want to learn how to fight against that. I go to a taekwondo tournament, and people are trying to get to the full equipment. 

Exactly, how to chest protector, headgear. And yeah, I had a mouth guard and a belt, enhanced sparring gear and that kind of thing? I shouldn't put pads on there people, you want to do this, I want to do this. Okay, well, let's get you some gear, you know, and people would come together and do that. And, I was very competitive. And I was the guy that took my sparring gear and put it in the ice chest to harden it up. So, that first shot with Sting. But I remember, like, for example, like when I went to the taekwondo tournament, and I did pretty good, not knowing the art, or, and learning the rules in the first couple of matches really quick. And Allah saying I won, because I did. But, um, I remember, like a fuse. Like one thing, specifically, even though I blocked a shot in the typical [00:16:26-00:16:28], hand up, other hand down, block, when the kick was coming, the guy would land. 

Now, it wasn't a point, because he hit me in the upper arm, but I'd go flying, or he would hurt and leave a mark, you know, and I didn't want to get hit with that, again, cut type of feeling like, okay, that nice shot, grin and smile and say, yep, you got me. But I'm sick, okay, I have to learn away to fight against this thing are, I'm gonna have dislocated shoulder by the end of the weekend, because I was just doing the normal absorb block, that you're doing Kung Fu, you know, are, are just kind of, you know, tried to parry it a little bit, so you're not getting the full force. Let's face it, though, when that front kick is coming, whether it's the ball of this foot, or the heel, because you carried it a little bit, it's still gonna hurt. So, Sam got laid off. So that was how that happened. 

So, I ended up taking taekwondo lessons for about six months just to learn how to not get hit with that thing. So that was how that came about. And the team really embraced that kind of thing we had in the Aikido guy there. And, you know, that was fun. And I took some Aikido lessons. So, we used to play and, you know, and then of course, you had the guys that were really, really good and that you couldn't stand a chance against. I mean, when you're facing, you know, Steve Anderson, you know, just affected your culture. Like, really, you want me to go in there, hit this guy in my life, you know, and he knew it, and he would grin and smile, you know, and just say this, and we're gonna have fun. You know, I got hit by Billy Blanks, axe kick. That wasn't fun. No, no, no, but you know, on the other hand, they're, you know, really good guys. And, you know, and afterward you start talking to these guys, they're just like you and I, they just want to play. And, you know, they have some athletic ability that, you know, I didn't have obviously, and skills maybe doing a little bit longer because, you know, they're a little older than I am. But it was fun. And I learned a lot, you know, and you see, I mean, you know, this was during the time there were, you know, Chuck Norris would show up and sign autographs and show off a little bit.

Cynthia Rothrock was still competing back then, you know, because [00:19:05-00:19:06] was so competing back then. So, you got to meet some of these people on and through that team. I was in the middle of the light team for a little while. didn't really care for that because it was really hyper competitive. You know, and go, go, go, go, go, go. But I did have the opportunity to travel. I mean, I can honestly say I've been in the tournament and just about every state in the Union plus Canada, Mexico, you know, it was fun. It was a lot of fun. And that's right, that you know, in the next stage, you know, I met some of the security people that got me involved in some stuff. And that was pretty cool.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So, you stepped out of competition and you went into private security?

Tommy Given:

Yeah, I worked for a big rock and roll promoter for quite a few years. And I did a lot of concerts and my job was the guy that when they got past the football players size guys just to make sure the inner reach of the talent. And I was, you know, I can set the chain, nobody ever reached the talent. I wasn't tested that often, but it happens. But because I'm unassuming, and I'm not very big, and I blended right in, no, I was the guy they weren't looking for. So I would be able to, you know, miss, you know, redirect them, as they would say, and not to reach the stage and through that day, you know, I had jobs with like, Burns International Security, and did some new color work for that kind of thing, you know, high end, security for those places that were for Pinkerton, Wells Fargo. It was good stuff. 

So, that was pretty cool. And I did that for quite a while. And then I found myself teaching to the state correction officers and state police. And so my training got enhanced there. And then, I started the internal journey, right about that. This was probably the early 90s. And that's when I tried to focus on realizing that I can't do the hard stuff forever. And by this time, I've already been diabetic for 20 years. So that started creeping up on me and I was. So I went to school as a lineman and became a lineman and taught on the side and taught a few schools, kids classes and that kind of thing. And I started taking personal lessons. Because you're having to clarify.

Jeremy Lesniak:

There's probably some people listening for whom the term lineman means football.

Tommy Given:

Oh, no, no. I will get destroyed. No, I was an electrical lineman, mostly low voltage, but I did everything that I did: a lot of cable TV, a lot of fiber, a lot of telephone, and, then primary, and secondary electrical as well, I was licensed to do everything. But I was in a union. And most of the contractors that we got that would hire me were the cable companies, or, you know, that kind of thing. So, and I spent a lot of years doing fiber, and telephone wires, when digital first hit, you know, because the internet was new and all that had to come up. So there's a lot of work in that. And I get a lot of storm duty as well. So, I mean, I was up in Vermont for I mean, you know, I was down in Texas and Florida and those hurricanes, and did a lot of work. So that was the nap part. And then the internal to be clear was I started in the Silent Dragon and Black Dragon Kung Fu. And, since I was already into kempo a lot, it wasn't a hard transition for me to go full on with that. 

And that's where I started learning Tai Chi, and more Kung Fu stuff. And this is pretty much what I teach today. And I teach Aikido as well, because I earned a pretty decent rank in that as well. But the soft style is kind of what I, for lack of a better term, go for, although in my school, all ranks and all sales are welcome. And everybody plays. So, if somebody comes in, for example, as a black belt in Shotokan karate, no one will entertain that, and work with that. And then blend what I like to call ‘concepts’. And that always becomes fun. Because my students, you know that, you know, when you're doing, you know, animal forms, they're fun. They're kind of cool. But they don't realize it works or not? So you bring in somebody like that. And they realize, wait a minute, they got some stuff. That's pretty cool. But we got stuff. That's pretty cool. Can we combine them? And I'm like, this is where you're learning? Absolutely. So, that's how we're that way and plus I had to earn a living. I mean, I really wasn't earning a good living and security. I mean, to get shot out for $12 an hour wasn't much fun. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So, no, maybe if it was like 18/20.

Tommy Given:

Yeah. Yeah, no, we've been shot at twice. I don't like this. You know, this isn't fun. So, you know, yes, I live to tell you about it. But again, you know, if they were really trying to kill me, they probably wouldn't succeed. You know, so there's not enough money in the back of this band for me to really want to, you know, just lay it all down. So, and the first thing they tell you is that, you know, leave the money and leave. But I mean, why are you an armed guard? So, you know, and then for the Department of Defense jobs, you know, then you realize that you're not leaving, that is a whole different scenario. So, if they were really coming over that fence, they would implode the plant before they ever let those secrets get out. So yeah, it wasn't for me, you know. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So, I want to talk about all these different styles you've trained and not the style, specifically, but the approach because there are a couple things that are going on here. And one, you acknowledge this, when you talked about your first instructor, the idea that cross training was not really a thing people did, and sometimes they did. But they didn't use that word. Because right, you know, back then if I've got my math, right, you started ahead of me, I started in ‘83. And back then there were kind of two schools of thought. We either did what that style said to the letter, or it was, we're gonna take everything we can possibly get our hands on, there was I was aware of nothing in the middle.

Tommy Given:

Right. So yeah, I gradually started around 1970. So now a decade ahead of you, and yet, the same school of thought was still in place, maybe even stricter in the 70s? I don't know.

Jeremy Lesniak:

My understanding from the guests we've had on the show, that open mind mentality was even less common. Right, in your conventional schools, maybe maybe in the competition world, because people are always trying to get a leg up. But that wasn't where you were then. Right? We're in school. Right?

Tommy Given:

So, the first school I went to was the capital scroll, which already started out. We trace its roots as a Kung Fu/Karate blend. Right. So, the approach of Griffin, the you know, Griffin's Iron Dragons was that you take this, and realize it is a hard and soft way of doing this. So in that sense, I obviously had a very open minded set of teachers, and a system that I started out in. And that helped a lot however, I brought it back then and even to this day, I run into “we do this”. Often, you don't do that, that's what they do, or what you do, won't work against this. So I have a prejudice against that style. Because they do, they don't do this, or they only do that. And I always find that when you're running into that, and I really hate to say it, but somebody who really didn't do their homework. 

Because when you really start looking into the art and into the forms, particularly, and the root systems, you see that the blending always took place. I mean, how did Kung Fu start from some monk looking at an animal saying you know what, I think I can use this and blending that into human form. I mean, listen, they're named after animals for heaven's sake right? Crane, Tiger. And all these things you have though, dragons mythological. It's still a presence that takes on when you start doing dragon form. You start thinking about a mythological creature, Your Majesty about it, you do that form. There's a gracefulness that only comes with that. When you do Tiger you can't help but get fierce. 

When you do Mantis you know, your personality will change to an aggressive type striking, it's Mantis Kung Fu. So when blending in that, what I always tried to strive for was if karate lasted this long, it's got to have a good foundation and you can build any house system with a good foundation if journals lasted that long. Why? There's a lot of flash in the pan martial arts that come through; they don't last and the good ones do. And there's reasons for that. And I think we cross trained and blind and try to understand their concept and approach that makes you not only a better martial artist, but a better person overall, because you're placing yourself on their dojo, their Quan. Their hardwood floor, their maps, you know? And, you know, when I teach? I don't, I said this all time, there's no such thing as bad art, only bad artists, you know? And if you answer a bad artist, I'm sorry, I apologize, I'll give you a hug. 

You know, I can't tell when you give me your money back because I teach for free. So but you're gonna walk away with the caliber of saying, You know what? We went through this, we looked at it from every measure. And there's a lot of forms, you start breaking them down, they're very similar across the arts. I mean, when you start looking at a tank to go versus a karate, yep, it's different. You can see the differences, but you can see this, you know, the similarities as well. Kung Fu is more circular. But when you break that block down, is it really that different from a parry block? In karate? Right? Or your five star combination? And Kempo? Is it really that different? 

Sure. It may be quicker, stronger, harder, more external versus internal. And those centers, where you're, you know, you're trying to, you know, cut off and break and stop or in Kung Fu, you're doing more blending and pulling, pushing. But is it really that different? You know, you're learning how to fight. Let's get realistic here. Not that you want to fight, but it's a martial art. And so that's why we have a lot of weapons in my class too. Because weapons really bring out the beauty. That is art. And you learn pretty quickly too, and you're doing it wrong, because it's not going to work. You know, when the other person on the other side has a nice volken? You know, ready to tap your ribs you realize, okay, that back didn't work? So are the sticks in your forearms are black and blue? Well, yeah, I think I need to do this differently. But I appreciate that question. Because you're right. 

The walls that I have come across, and it's kind of heartbreaking to be honest with you. I don't get frustrated anymore, because I realize it's just their point of view. And it doesn't have to be that way. I think art should be more sharing and more open to one another. I think there should be more people that are willing to, you know, if you don't understand Taekwondo, then don't take it for six months. Learning? What are your friends? If you don't understand Kung Fu, or you don't really think it's good self defense, I heard that many times that come take my classes six months, and see if you're, you know, learning anything practical that you can use that will save your life? You know, I would bet I would say you will. I mean, one of the strongest things I teach is to turn fear into curiosity. And if you're fearful about something, ask yourself, why get curious about it. It's an ego thing. wouldn't drop your ego a little bit and figure it out. If your art is truly superior, then what are you afraid of? You know, if the rest is all junk, but are you afraid? I'm trying, you know, to prove to me that my stuff is junk. 

You know, not me personally. But I mean, you know, in general, prove that school that it's just go check them out, you don't know. You know, for example, like Krav Maga, right, you hear a lot of criticism about it from other different schools, not realizing that, you know, when the Israelis train, they're in full battle gear, they got full riot gear on. And you know, a lot of people show that front trash block when you work in real life, really, if you're willing, you got a bulletproof vest on and arm pads and a face shield, that block is not only going to work, it's going to drop you on your behind quicker than you can know what to deal with. And now sorry, do you're gonna be looking up the deck guy real quick, who's not got a PR-24 on your throne. The stuff works you know, and they do it truly daily to save their lives. You know, I don't want to get into a political discussion on near Israeli self-defense. But to be honest here, there are people out there in the world that would like to see that country off the face of the earth. You know, that's simple. And again, I don't mean to get emotional or be political about that. But it's true. And you know, and I have a lot of pride, a lot of arrogance. 

I mean, I'm half Native American. So I understand. Being a kid when your teacher walks in and says you know you're running around like a bunch of wild Indians. And now look up and say, Well, my odds, zero way around. Yeah, we are called the Indian giver. Wait a minute, whose land was whose. So, and I kid about it now, because I realize, you know, I can't change history. And I can't change the way somebody was brought up not knowing any better. But I can change my heart in the point of you know, what, I understand why you said that. I understand why you call it a paddy wagon, you know, my other side is Irish. But case, the root of those comments, and understand, you know, there are times in this world where people just don't like each other. And, you know, I tried to change that one person at a time. Now, they're, you know, that's why my school is another reason why my school is free, it's an outreach, because I think that it's not that I am getting better at kung fu. Now, Kung Fu is making me a better person. You know, I'm able to grow in those areas, and one of them is embracing other people's lifestyles or their cultures. 

And, you know, that's over the last 10 years. I wasn't always that way. You know, as a kid, I was pretty hard headed, but didn't really care to see someone else's point of view, necessarily. But the last, you know, 10/15 years that's changed. You know, and, can you name a better place other than a martial arts school, where you're going to get all those cultures in one spot? Okay, you know, without bodies, you know, or without an agenda. I mean, our agenda in martial arts schools is to learn how to do that. It's kind of cool, right? You know, as young boys, you learn to do martial arts for two reasons. 

Either you learn how to fight, or pick up girls. You know, that changes quickly once you're in there. But that's usually a motivation for a 20 year old guy. Which is fine. But when you break it all down, and get to know one another, it really is, I can't think of a better place. You know, and, you know, you don't be a little bit, I'm a God fearing guy, I go to church. But, you know, even in those religious aspects, there's an agenda at times, and I'm not afraid to, to admit that there is also a prejudice sometimes, you know, like, I'm not welcomed, you know, and there's an old church joke that I think applies to martial arts, too, you know, the devil's crying and the church steps of the of the famous church. And Jesus walks up to him and says, Dude, why are you crying? The devil looks at it, they won't be in there. And she just said, well, they will let me in there too. So, you know, again, not to make this a religious thing, because it's not, but when we're not afraid to look in someone else's eyes, and let them pull what's in your eye that's stopping us machines, the world would be a better place. And, you know, a martial arts school is the only place that I know of, where no matter who walks in that door, you're welcome. And they really want you to come back to the next class. You know, if you're not welcomed into martial arts school, you messed up somewhere. You know, that's on you.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's a bold, that's a bold statement. And yet, you know, Andrew and I were recording earlier today. And we talked about some stuff kind of along those lines, and so that's kind of hard. Exactly, and the dog.

Tommy Given:

You're right. Let me walk away from the dog. So, [00:39:00-00:39:04]. Yes. Go ahead. Yes, a bold statement.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You know, I've trained in a lot of different schools, and I can count on less than one hand, over the decades I've been training, the number of people who have been asked to not come back. It's very striking. 

Tommy Given:

It is and it's usually not for a martial art reason, right? You know, and again, and, again, it'll need to be cavesson that at all, but for example, if you got a guy in there, it's in there, you know, let's just be honest here, and that is not there for the right reasons and is dated, you know, 15 out of the 16 women in your class. You know, you might want to talk to him about, you know, a character issue there. Or maybe he's hurting other people on purpose. You know, maybe he has a real ankle problem. You've asked them to tone it down, maybe ask them to step out of the sparring classroom in a while, and they don't want to do it. You know. So, I've never seen somebody get turned away for financial reasons, I never seen anybody turn away for trying to do better. I never saw anybody get turned away for physical reasons. I mean, we've all seen the kid in the wheelchair, taking martial arts, you know, and got happy with it. So, if you're not asked to come back to class, you know, that's usually, you know, a character issue that someone has to work out. And you know, what, I've seen people come back, and, and accepted as well, when they work certain things out. And that's good, too. 

You know, I've seen people get kicked, not asked to come to a one or two classes for substance things. You know, maybe they stopped in the weight class and had that one too many? Sure. Hey, you might want to sit this one out a little bit. But, you know, I've never, you know, very, very few have, as it had not asked to come back. And then the few that I have seen within with a sincere apology, and a life change. They have come back, you know, it's a change in us, that's going to change people around you. You know, there's a point when, you know, people will always teach her how do I start working on myself? Well, stopping expecting other people to change would be a good first step. If you really don't like something, something as somebody else, you gotta ask yourself, why? What is it about that person that really bugs me, and it did something silly, like the way they raise your eyebrow, or something that's on you. You know, it's okay to have pet peeves. Because pet peeves give you the absolute right to complain about something that's not important at all. 

Just make sure they don't bite somebody else. You know, if you have a pet peeve, for example, that you always spread your peanut butter first, before you put jelly on it, that's until somebody makes you a sandwich. And they do it the opposite way, you're going to reject it now. Because your pet peeve was just a certain way and in order to know when you're on that inflexible. Now that's a character issue within that person himself. And I'm not saying that's good, bad, or indifferent, but you have to recognize what you taught, you don't have to hang out with that person, you don't have to associate with that person. And no one's asking you to, you know, walk hand in hand to be great friends either. But if you really love somebody, and you want to see dynamic, radical change, then do something radical, and realize it's you radically need change. You know, a lot of people want to make or do radical martial arts. Well, then do something radical, how about training something else for a while? Completely different from what you're doing? You find people that for example, well, I've taken karate just because they're both popular, showed a town karate for 10 years, and you're really good. So you want to try something else? So you got to Shōrin-ryū? How much did you really change? 

Yep, you learned a couple of new forms, the standards are a little different, maybe a little deeper than maybe maybe a little different from the context of, of coming at it. But you really want radical change from Shotokan Karate, you know, try Kata, [00:43:50-00:43:53], you know, do something that's gonna radically change the way you approach things, and then blend them together. You know, when you see somebody that's really good at karate, all of a sudden, they can go into a soft bow stand and change. And now you don't know where their balance or point of attack is coming from. That's beautiful. That's art. You know, when you see guys who do kung fu for a really long time, and all of a sudden, they can do some hard blocks and do a triangle move in, or put you in an arm bar that you ain't getting out of that beauty. Because, you know, they didn't learn that in their school, you know, that they had to step out of their comfort zone in order to apply for a new job. You know, I love it when a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu guy would come into my school, and they come in with a single leg takedown, and then I crossface and go around. Well, wait, I didn't expect that from your kung fu guy. 

You're gonna want to stand up. You're right. I do want to stand up. I don't like this. But you said you came in on me. That's silly and stay there unless you take my leg out, you know, and put me in a triangle. Not gonna happen. If you get it, you earned it, then fine, I'll tap out, you earned it no big deal, right? That's how you learn. So, but don't think for example, because say, if you're in one style all the time, and this is your, the thing you always land. If you think other styles are not trained against that one thing, then you're really naive. You know, if your art thinks you're the only one that you could do something, then that's naive. And it's immature, really, because all the other arts train against that thing that's coming out. That's what forms are for. Like, why do you do your forms in your heart, because your, your imaginary fit coming at you that's unconventional, different from what is coming at you for that's what makes swordplay so great. Because, you know when even with a focus, if you mess up, you're going to feel it, you're going to know, Kendo was awesome for that as well, you're going to learn really quick. And it doesn't matter what the rank of a person is in front of the metric, you want a higher rank, because they tend to have better control. They're not going to point you in that direction. So however, you get that one person in there that maybe has some natural ability, you know, you're going to use what works, that you go to the same thing all the time, you're going to figure it out. You know, a lot of styles are built into the culture. Other styles, we have a form in Chinese Kung Fu, the five animal form, where the first whole 12 moves are up against a military style, aggressive fight. They're all blocks for the sword to the face, or punch, you know, or a stabbing type thing. And even though they're based on animals, they're made to intercept you know, the Japanese coming on that. 

So, you don't forget the Asian wars go back centuries. And, you know, a lot of those arts were developed because there's a, you know, a feudal sense of, of how they live. It was a martial world. And it was for the clients who came from right. That's where the families came from. That's where we talked about. I'm sure you've talked about lineage all the time, your lineage comes from right, y'all see how some farmer said I had enough? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's a very succinct and apt answer.

Tommy Given:

Yeah. Yeah. So far had enough that this pitchfork is going in your throat, bro. I'm sorry. I had enough. You know, a lot of people say like, sighs we're Hey, [00:47:52-00:47:52], or if that's the point, that's a pretty nice weapon now. Right now, nunchuck's oxygen holders. Well, if they were yolk holders, you know, well, guess what, um, you know, getting something swung at you like that. You don't want to be in front of that? Nobody wants to? Yeah, yeah. nobody. I mean, I've even hit myself by accident.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I would guess, if there was a way to study, the number of hits nunchaku have scored in the last decade, 99% of them have been against the person holding them. Usually in the back of the head.

Tommy Given:

Yeah, just look at the back of my elbow. Right. But, you know, on the back, yeah, I mean, um, but I hand coordination. It's a fun, you know, fun thing to learn. It's, you know, when I use it on the street, no, you know, I rather use a cane if I had to pretend that I was crippled, you know, whatever. But, and so it's easy to like, I never go to an airport, I also and I get a lift and a cane. When I walk through an airport, because I'm not going to take your cane away from you. So you might, you know, there's always things you're going to take about a martial point of view. And you want to stay legal, right? You want to stay healthy, you want to stay when the right side of the law, a lot of things you can't carry them check, at least when I was a kid you put in you know, but you can have a stick in your hand. So [00:49:25-00:49:26] works. You know, I think you always hear the same to like if you're going to carry a baseball bat. 

Make sure there's a ball and glove in your trunk as well. Your lawyer will thank me later, you know, that kind of stuff you hear all the time in the martial art room and that's fine. It's funny, but realistically, do you ever even really want to go there? You know, one of those guys that would much rather buy you a beer or soda or a cup of coffee. Then continue this argument. You know, I? So, you know, I'm working security, I've seen things escalate quick. But that's never good. So, and that's where you want to reach out my opinion, you know, and try to change what was it about me that you know, like, you know, Can I change that? What can I do? You know, we got to work together for the next five years on this, you know, on this line crew, like when I was in alignment, there's a personality conflict, I would mean, listen, dude, we're gonna work together. And Bro, we're going to need each other. And our lives are going to depend on it. What is it about me, you know, like, you know, my hair color? Yeah, my blue jeans are as blue as yours. You read the same books. You know, and you figure it out. And you know, usually you end up becoming good friends after that conversation. Maybe not the first time, maybe not the second. Maybe the 10th. So you realize, you know what it was? It's usually something minor. No, I actually had a tie down like that because of my list. Now, tributes at. Now he's a good friend of mine.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How did you convert that? 

Tommy Given:

Well, um, I asked him, I said, dude, what is it? How are you guys when you talk? You drive me nuts? Like, what do you mean, he knows you? Well, you have, you know, oh, my speech impediment that then speech therapy since I was five years old, be that thing. And then he looked at me, I said, I know. I still when I talk fast, or after a couple of beers, it really shows up. It doesn't bother me anymore. But for some reason, it bothered him. And I don't know why. And then we had to talk to him, he found out that, you know, his stepmother who wasn't very nice to him was a speech impediment, and it was just one of those root causes that caused him to trigger. It was a trigger for every time you heard it. And we became good friends after that. And, you know, a lot of conversations, a lot of working through it. You know, I was his boss for a little bit. So I said, listen, you're gonna have to like me or not, you know, you're getting your checkups on me on Wednesday. And if you're not doing a good job, because you're pissed at me, if, you know, I'm going to have to tell our steward, you know, I was in a union. And now he always did a good job. And he showed up to work at time. He just didn't care for me for a while. And then after why he realized, you know what, it's not you. You're just just a trigger for me, and I got to work with it. And he did. And then he ended up coming to a conclusion in mind for a little while, too. So that worked out well. I mean, it hurt when he said it, you know, because it brought up like, why would someone not like me, because I don't speak well, in his mind. But in the end, it's all fine. And it was the change in me approaching is what the hell changed him to bring that back up again. Now, that got deep quick, ha.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What happens when I get out of the way you just remember to take us on please.

Tommy Given:

So, um, well, you know, as you know, when we take on students, as martial artists, and are you submit yourself as a student, as a martial artist isn't enduring or should be moment somewhere in that? I mean, Sifu is an enduring or endearing, I should say, connotation meaning teacher, friends, uncle. You know, just a respect, but there's also a loving connotation that goes with that. And, you know, as Sensei, as well is like, you know, what I want to learn from you. Give me what you got, is the meanings behind all that Suzuki, right balance. Isn't this all about that yin and Yan, in the in, in Kung Fu, Suzuki, and in the Japanese art, it's all balanced. And if you don't have that teacher student relationship in balance, and it should be in a caring, giving, pushing way, but you know, respectable and honorable, you know, you are a man of integrity, women of integrity, people of integrity. But on the same day, it becomes family. You know, it becomes a Brotherhood or sisterhood. They become somewhere where, you know, I don't care about your background. We're training. We can go get pizza later, and we can hang out somewhere. times. And because of that, you know, now you're now you're developing relationships, you know, you can say, hey, that person is a friend of mine. Or you can say, you know what, that person's a friend of mine? I know that, you know, and when you know, somebody will have to say, you know what, I don't think they would do that, or yeah, that sounds just like him. 

Oh, yeah, that's something she would do, then that brings it to another level. And martial arts is a great way to get to know somebody in that in that manner. And you're sweating with them, you're bleeding with them, you're punching, you're throwing kicks at each other, you're getting it to moja try and join bots and different things of one another just trapping going on, right? Listening skills has to improve, you're never going to be very good at it. If you don't know how to listen to what somebody is doing. Even when they're not talking as a martial artist, you're in trouble. Because you're going to get hit with something and expect to get hit with that you have to watch the shoulder drop, right, the elbow rise enables the toe turns in, right, you see somebody rolling to the clear, the ball, their feet, you know, and Kung Fu if they start to root, you know, they're not going nowhere. You know, there's, there's stuff, you know, in judo, if you feel somebody's root, next, you know, the floors hit you in the head, right? 

So, you know, that's all listening, that's with getting, they're not talking, but yet, their body speaking loudly, and you have to kind of pick that up. You know, if you see a taekwondo person, you know, and you see that hit, start to move even though, you know, it's not moving much, you know, watched, watch out, just get out of the way, right? Jump, there's no backing up far enough that you need to sidestep and run. Because you know, you can stay there, they're ready to chamber and once in chamber. That's it, it's locked and loaded. And it's gonna go. And if you block it, like we talked about earlier, and it hits you, it's gonna leave a mark. Right? And it's supposed to leave a mark. So, you know, it's doing this job. And I always giggle when I see that, because I you know, I've, over the years, I've learned to know when this guy, you know, he wants to knock me back for she? And, you know, and sometimes I catch it, sometimes I don't, yeah, some people are quick enough to get that off. And, you know, and then I laugh, because, you know, you got me, that's cool. They know, you give them a quick follow, you go back as it again, you know, and, and then you start worrying the person how they move that hit. Right. I'm sure you do it differently than the person next year, depending on, you know, whatever you are, you know, body chemistry chemicals, what you want to get out of that we don't. But now when the balls that hit start to rotate in any direction, you need to get out of the way that you know. I don't care how strong, big or tough you are, you get hit with that kick. And if it's blocked, it's gonna hurt. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's supposed to hurt.

Tommy Given:

Right? Right. It's good. Yeah, but that thing comes out of the chamber. Iit's a human bullet hitting you in the side of the head, you know, or the shoulder or your head. Yeah. I mean, you're the head. That's, yeah, it's more than I feel like. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I want to dig into something, I'm gonna get into something because we, you know what, I'm watching the time and I want to be aware of your time and our time over here. But glossing over isn't the right word. You touched on something and you moved on. I want to go back because I think it's important. We've talked about this in a variety of different ways, different guests over the years. And I love getting this feedback. Because regardless of what we train, why we train, how we train, there are very few universal experiences in our martial arts journey. And one of them is that we all get older. Yeah, I have not met anyone who has been able to freeze their body in time. I'm doing the best I can. But even I'm getting older. Yeah, despite my efforts, and you talked about what you term this, you didn't use the word transition, but I will, from hard to soft external to internal. Sure. And if I caught your timetable, right, you've been in the midst of or on the other side of that transition for a little while now. And I'd like you to speak to that and what a hard charging kind of rough and tumble competitive guy who was engaged in some pretty dynamic striking based Arts is finding now that you're older, with a different maybe, philosophy on if not, self defense, at least training.

Tommy Given:

I'd love this question. And truly from all my heart, thank you for bringing it back to this. You're right, I was in the transition at that point where the heart sheils started catching up to me. because of the training, I also was, you know, training to be a lineman, which is not an easy job on the body as well. I was already type one diabetic for about 20 years, at that point, which is going on my body. I adopted a special needs daughter that took a lot of energy out of me. And, and to be honest, I was in that, you know, midst of a divorce, or close to that as well. So Emotionally, I was not in a good spot. And then I was kind of like, okay, I know, I can't keep this hard pace, how much I love it forever. My hands got to the point where I couldn't close on anymore. I couldn't hold my pliers in alignment. Arthritis started kicking in. I found myself just contemplating it for 10/15 minutes as I rolled out of bed. And I liked it more than I was going to do. So, then in that transition. I went to Sifu. Steve Watson had this thing of, he called it different trees of the same forest. And conceptually, it's kind of like a free training day, but different. It was a lot more low key. 

It was not anywhere near as organized. But the thought behind it was this: just get together and leave the hills at the door and play and see what you got. So there was a guy doing headlocks there. And people were not getting out of them. And so Ramsey sent that to me. And if you met Ramsey or not, these are pretty good night fighters, see rock guy. And he looked at me, he goes what? Say, that wouldn't hold me. It was why he said I can't just it's not anything else. They will not be held that way. So Steve picked up on the conversation, that we're having the side and then he dictates okay, this guy here. You didn't know me yet. Let him put the headlock on, you know, I'm good. No, I don't, I don't want to go in there. He's doing a great job. That's fine. No, no, you do go in there. I'm like, No, I'm good. I'm okay. Right here. He's doing a good job. It's just, it's his deal. It's fine. 

So, then the guy says that you're afraid to get hurt. So I went there and I assumed my position for lack of a better term. He put a headlock on me and I popped that. He tried again, I popped on it again. He tries again, I pop out again. Look, you try this one more time. I'm going to fight back now, instead of just popping out of it. I said, you know, this is a great move that somebody really doesn't want to be in. They're going to get out, fighting you, pinching, crawling, whatever it is, they're going to get out. So then he goes let me really sink in and I said I'll tell you what, I'll stop right here and you tell me when you want me to get out that bullet this guy that wanted to see was the big guy was a big guy say go when you say you're ready. Fair enough. Okay, fair enough. He's a nice guy. So he gets into his deep deep headlock, sinks it in because he pushes himself and is leaning back into me. And while waiting, I hear Steve say the guy barely can hear because the guys, like this headlock, absorbed into his body. 

So, I kick the back in his name, put my foot right down his shin, elbow and I'm in the area that you know most guys don't want to get hit out and then as he bent down I put my hand up and typical chemicals strike there and pop them in the mouth and I got out and I said I told you so at that point, she brought me over and we started to play. And I don't know how long it was. Some people said it was an hour, some people said it was 20 minutes but whatever when we were done playing I escalated. He escalated and he was doing stuff I'd never felt or experienced before. In a martial way. Boy, he was blocking, absorbing and trapping and I was hitting him and spotting, he hasn't been challenged in a long time. I'd like to brag I have pretty good hand speed and I know how to hit. And you know how to strike and all that. And, you know, I had some power. And when we stopped, everybody was just kind of staring. And that's when I met with Meyer, he started writing it down. It's like a blacktop magazine or something that, you know, this thing that happened at this event. 

So then Steve pulled me aside, he goes, listen, I can tell that you're hurting in a lot of areas right now. Like, yeah, could you tell that and he's like, Well, I've been doing this quite a while and you know, a lot of guys that are in pain come to me for acupuncture and other stuff, he goes, but just comes by train. And so on the [01:05:46-01:05:48] I got all the stuff he goes to just come and train. So I started, and I started learning Tai Chi, I learned on the internal martial arts on the slow moving the healing processes of trying to convert all that external energy internally about balance, you know, again, we talked about earlier, the balance effects like in the Japanese arts, Suzuki, about balance in the Chinese and beyond principles. And I started to realize your ways that I can move to keep moving. And after a very short period of time, I was able to close my hands again, I was able to hold a pair of pliers, I was able to just get out of bed, wherever before I had to take a bug, I just would wake up and get out of bed. When the first time it happened, I realized I was doing that. Like rather than that years, and things started loosening up, the arthritis never really completely went away. But it's so much better. And it brought me back to when I was a kid again. Because when I first became diabetic you know, the doctors were concerned because this is 1976 the medical field was not where it is today, especially with diabetes medications and stuff like that. I mean, when I first tried to take insulin, they came from pigs and and you know, pork and beef type things and I do have allergic reactions to them. To test just to check my sugar is a small chemistry lab in my bathroom. Because I had to boil my earring and put tablets in there and put in a test tube and get it all going. There was just so much. And then the doctors brought my parents in. 

So listen, this kid's not gonna live to 30. So my father's like, “What do you mean?” Because I think he should know that, you know, he's probably not going to live to 30 years old. Most kids in his physical condition and what's going on his body and everything. generally don't, you know, but a 10 year lifespan. So because I was, you know, who I was added a couple of extra years for whatever that I do, you know, at that time. So my father says, okay, you're right, maybe you should know, but I want you to tell me. And the doctor said what I wanted you to tell her. So my father brings me to the doctors, my regular doctor, Dr. Rosenblatt was there. And then this other doctor who I did not know. And another doctor, and he said, listen, young man, we want to tell you something. You know, you're smart, you're intelligent, you're athletic, you're moving. But I want to let you know that you probably only have you know, maybe you might live to about 30 years old. I looked at that guy straight. Yeah. And I said screw you, I got other plans. And the guy looked at me, I used a different word. The guy looked at my father, my father, I'm not gonna make him apologize for that. And my father uses the same work, you know. And then I looked at my doctor and doctors, I noticed and I would not bet against him. 

So, then that flashback brought me back to where I was in another transition, I have to think of things differently now. I had to take things differently than to preserve my life because I love lights. If you know me for more than 10 minutes, you know that I love life. I love people. I enjoy all things about life. I love animals. You know, I live alone on a mountain for a reason because I enjoy nature. You know, I am that guy that cannot sing but will you know it? So

it's just who I am. And I didn't want to give that up. So when I started going into the soft side of the arts, the internal arts Learning how to breathe control differently than external in that sense in your Qigong, you know, in the exercises, and the tai chi, and then learning Kung Fu, which is great. Martial wise. So I wasn't giving up . Some people think they're giving up on Tai Chi. But when I learned Black Dragon, Silent dragon Kung Fu and that whole full circle martial art wise, it really benefited me. I mean, just that old saying, right, what's the best way to beat a martial art? Wait 10 years? To beat up?

Jeremy Lesniak:

I haven't heard that one. But I love it.

Tommy Given:

I mean, really, what's the best way to become a martial artist? Just wait 10 years? You know, I wanted to reverse that a little bit, or at least smaller down. Most people don't believe it when they meet me, actually. I am 59 years old. Yeah, they guess many years younger, my energy is always many years younger as well. And I think a lot of that has to do not only with because I love lies, and I love people. And I generally, you know, see the potential of people and, and I enjoy, you know, bringing that out in them or watching them grow that kind of thing. And it again brings me back to why I teach for free. Why my schools and outreach to anybody is welcome. You know, and just come and come play, come learn. And you know, and with all styles, all rates there, if you're interested in heart styles, you meet somebody, and I have no problem recommending somebody to another school that hey, you know what, you know, this guy down the street doesn't start stylish new karate. 

They'll see him or two masters write it down and you know, go this guy really knows his stuff when it comes to taekwondo. Go, go check this school out. Tell him a century of it. You know? And tell people really adapted, you know, the Chinese philosophy on the countryside as well. And then they hang out for a while.[01:12:14-01:12:18]. It's not for you, that's fine. But you're welcome to come back at any time. And so, you know, when you're talking about the soft styles here, the movements are slow for a reason. They're impactful, and you're using your whole body, and a body in motion stays in motion. I mean, that is so true. And then you can add, you know, the fun part, you can start working with a fan, you're nice, You know, you can use a Tai Chi sword. You know, it doesn't have to stop being boring. Have you equated Tai Chi with a boring girl man on the beach with a cup of tea? Yeah, that's true. And since then you also learn how to push your hands. Now you can push your hands at 90 years old. Right? And it's still competitive, though. And it's still, you know, fun to do. And push hands can easily turn real quickly. And it's fun. 

And we do questions and somebody knows how to hit hard, then it becomes really fun. You know, that's one thing I love about Taekwondo and karate students, when I'm showing up, I push my hands. Okay, so now we'll do inward, punch with it, and make their eyes light up really good. You can hit your turn. You know, that's what you were playing now. I can hit back. Well, okay, we got it, you know. And then they realize the slight changes and movements there, your punches aren't landing as squares they thought it would be. So the impact difference and they got to change it up all the cushions, you know, all those little things, you know how you can completely block somebody was just a funny move into one inch. And you completely missed somebody even though you said that block was there. You know, I made that mistake, right? So I know how to do that recoil back real quick or practice real quick. Are they doubled up? So you have to change your approach and all that fun, do push hands with a boxer is really, really fun. Because they've got the angles down. 

They know exactly where that's going to land and how it's going to land no matter where they're standing. Right. So when you push hands with them, you add, you know, little taps to the head or taps to the throat. They love it. Right? Because now they're realizing, hey, I can use my boxing skills in this heart though. Absolutely. Right? You can transfer those over. So when you start talking about internal arts, it's not limited to Kung Fu or Aikido and, and in Tai Chi to necessarily. You can open that up. And that's why they blend so well with a hardstyle student for many years, but you know, the hands hurt now, your knees shock, your hits aren't quite what they used to be. You had back surgery, right? You got in a car accident. Whatever the circumstances we have. I have one student that develops them. That's right. I'm like, don't drop out. You know, we'll go through this together. 

You know, I'm here for you, you know, and yes, it's sad. But yet, you know, you see the joy in their eyes, that they can still do stuff that many people told that they couldn't, you know, or would have to give up. You know, Kung Fu, which just translates to good hard work, right? Let's break it down to a surplus term. Kung Fu never has to be given up in anybody's life for good hard work. You never have to give up. You may change. The approach may change and the style may change the ins and outs, right. I mean, here's your painting and just say, wow, that's really good. That's good Kung Fu. Poetry. You can get my copy. But your other book that I read twice now is the martial arts handbook. That's good. Kung Fu, bro. Right? You know, it really is right? Because you did your homework yet. He adapted it? And any martial artist in any style, if you don't get something out of your book, then they didn't read it. Now, let's be honest, they didn't read that. 

You know, and they lie to you, because you can read it. And now you know, you know me, right? If you told me that you read that you're a buyer. Right? Because, you know, from the intro on, it grabs you, and he grabs you, you know, I'm not comparing it to the Book of Five Rings that everybody reads that.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Different people are reading it 1000 years from now then we have a number of jobs.

Tommy Given:

Like, an awkward comparison on purpose. Sure, because, you know, let's just keep it respectful. You know, in that sense the Book of Five Rings is a masterpiece. However, your book is damn good work. Thank you, right. Is it Van Gogh? I don't know. I don't even like Van Gogh. But it's good work. And I know paintings that I can see that I like. Am I an art critic? No. But I've been around the martial arts long enough to know, somebody knows what they're talking about, or not. You know, and, one thing about me is bringing, you know, people always, you know, and I granted this a lot. And there's actually a famous story about me grabbing the guy's t-shirt, if you want to hear it some time. But if you tell me that you studied this, this and this, and this, I want to find out and I want to feel it, because we're going to find out real quick if you study this, this and this. That's your point of embarrassment or anything like that. But just, let's see what you got. Right? 

If you study, if you told me you studied Kung Fu for 10 years, you don't know how to reply to me. If you studied taekwondo for 10 years, and you can't kick me off my days, you'd like to write, and you tell me you study shorter, calm for 10 years. And you can't make me bend over after you hit me in the chest. You lied to me. You know, there's certain things about certain rights that you know, that have a trademark. And let's see what you got. You know, and if he does work, then I want to know, because you, you put time in, and effort in that I can not only appreciate the honor and respect because somebody who who goes, you know, 2-3-4 times a week or even once a week of over a time and does just that little bit each day. That's somebody that I want to know. You know, it doesn't have to be martial arts. If you do stained glass, and you show me your first one and the ones you're doing up and you see the improvement. That's somebody that you want to know. Right? You're an author. I'm not, I can, but I read a lot. Right? 

I mean, my library is here. And I read everything in I know a good book, and I know not a good book. And when you read something that grows adds you, then that's a bit off, right when you're [01:20:03-01:20:04]or anything, that's all the classics that people like, you know, Jules Irving, anything that's out there. Science fiction when you go that way or if Ray Bradbury, even Stephen King got dirty, not my very favorite author is Jim Butcher, the stuff that he's putting out is great. You know, they're good. And that does stand the test of time your book will stand the test of time. You know, is it a classic? Time will tell, but it's good kung fu. You know, it wasn't just slapped together. And that's how, you know, I approach my art as well. And how I approach people, you know, I just switch and go. And the internal artists allowed me to be that person if I stayed. 

And I'm being honest here. External, I don't know how open I would be. Because I was prejudiced. A little bit was biased in the sense like, hey, you know, I can hit harder than the average person, I'm a lot quicker than the average person as well. This will last me forever. Yeah, I was wrong. I'm not as quick as I used to be. So like, people would tag that this enhanced speak for my age. What's that mean? For my age, right. So you add all that to it. I know, I can do what I'm doing now. Till the day I die. And I don't have to give that up. And I know it's helping me. And know whether that day is an hour from now, or 30 years from now, doesn't matter. I know that today. I did my forums, I did some [01:21-48-01:21:49] I hit my heavy bag. No, I talked to gym classes, you know, and they said I wasn't going to lift to 30. I doubled that already. So, you know, looking back on, I loved all those guys. You know, maybe they should have put Tai Chi. But you know. So you know, and you see the joy in me, you heard maybe in her little bit when I teach. I mean, there's always that laughter, that joy. It's fun. You know? Yeah, there are serious moments just like this conversation as you have serious moments in it. But overall, I hope somebody listening to us realizes the joy that I get in what I do. And right now that joy is focused on bringing martial arts as an outreach, I truly think the world would be a better place. If they taught martial arts in school. They taught martial arts you know, in gym class or taught Martial Arts in the Parks everywhere. 

Not that it should be mandatory. I'm not into that. But the author, with no pre-concepts, no conditions, just came. Just matter who you are. Just come. I mean, I teach for free at the Senior Center. I do teach kung fu in a local private school gym class, I do an after school program that the kids go to, and I don't charge the parents. And it's not that I'm infinitely wealthy, I'm not. But this is my way of giving back what the arts have done for me, I truly believe that the arts have given me so far extra doubled my lifespan than was predicted. Modern medicine has a lot to do with that, too. But if I'd had the attitude I had from learning the martial arts, I don't think, you know, I would have accepted those plans necessarily. And so it's my way of giving back. And then giving back, you know, I hope that energy comes through that you know what, you can do this, you get out, I'll see you next class. I hope you're having fun. And you and I both know, it's not necessarily fighting art, it's martial. But so much more than that. That's just scratching the surface of what can be done. However, in scratching that surface, you can learn to defend yourself. 

You can learn to get the self confidence that you need, you can learn to realize that your backbone has integrity with it not just strength, right? You can learn the fact that when you start building that confidence that you can do what you want to do. And you can be really good at he learned tapping to potential that you think you didn't have even, you know, I know engineers, right? Yeah. And computers, people that do martial arts, you're one you know, sitting behind a desk all day is free. I couldn't do it. But that's good control. Right. You're adapting to where you are. You know, I know scientists that take kung fu or karate, but because that discipline helps them with their discipline, and in their work, right, scientists are very disciplined in their work, but yet have to be open minded at the same time. That's a tough juggle. Martial arts helps with that. And the whole confidence thing. I mean, you know, martial arts are part of military life as well, you know, for obvious reasons. So, when bringing that all together, I, you know, one of the greatest compliments I ever got was when I got a phone call from a correctional officer that I was teaching in Connecticut, and he called me up, he said, “Listen, you saved my life today”. And I'm like, “huh”. Because prob, this guy was coming at me for that was a jail type, night shift, type thing. And I was able to just sidestep, handle the weapon, put them in front of me, hold them to the backup cane. 

Because it saved my life. And it wasn't anything fancy. It wasn't like, you know, what you see in the movies, it didn't kick the guy's knife out and do some back, you know, fancy thing. And, you know, he just simply did what he had to do to keep his life safe. And it's something we went over in class, many, many times, because of his line of work. And, he's like this, and you know, what you gave us saved my life to now and they go teach somebody else. Thank you for that, you know. And, you know, it was, to me, that was a phenomenal compliment. But it goes back to what somebody taught me, who taught him, we taught her right, all the way back. And, you know, those basic fundamentals, which we, which you bring up in your talk, show a lot are so important. Like, just go back to fundamentals, soft styles force you to go over your fundamentals again. So even if your fundamentals are, for example, in karate, and you're learning that downward block, mud step, reverse punch. We use that in Tai Chi. 

Doesn't necessarily look the same. But the fundamentals are still there. Right? Why do you mud step, keep your bounce, keep it low to the ground, keep your energy in the same direction, center of gravity saying that downward Baka stopper, whatever, just trying to take your knee out, and then reverse punch and tight. Same way, you will have the beginning and the end, it becomes a full circle, Kung Fu the same way, you may look a little different. But you can see the fundamentals and all of that. If someone came to me and wanted to learn that downward block, let's step reverse punch, I may change it a little bit. Route here, foot here, a set of this picture now that you know, trying something different, tries sticky. Let's try snake shoots kind of, you know, shock to the throat. Let's add more to them. 

In other words, I'm not taking away what we just said. Let's add to it. Let's build on it. Kind of like mathematics, right? You want to build on it. And when people truly start getting into this softer arts and put the prejudice aside, or if you're in the soft bars, and you put your pride aside except somebody from the hardstyle coming in, because that works both ways. And I've seen it both ways. And, you know, let's face it, some of them. Chinese lineage arguments are the worst in the history of the world. They come up with political, okay, different subjects. But we take that in, you know, if you put all prejudice aside, you know, now you have two people working with one another. And no one's discouraged. No saying that stinks. Right? When you watch the 70s blackbelt theater movies and you're saying your kung fu stinks. What they're really saying is that you're all that hard work that you put in for years than that up to anything. You break down the language barriers, oh, your kung fu stinks. They're saying you're good hard work that you did. Doesn't work. Everything you did was worthless. That's the last thing that you want to say to somebody who's just dedicated three months to 10/12/13 years of their life. You know, if you daily went to one class, that's a dedication for that one box. 

Because your honor that they're going to get it that won't cost what they get now, are they able to teach other people 10 years down the road? Can they take one seminar for a weekend? Of course not. Because it did get that would show quickly. However, though, if that was their first step, then take the second step together, let's take that third step together. Yeah, you know, join hands and start skipping like the Wizard of Oz. Let's just go this fall, this yellow brick road, wherever it comes, and the witch comes a bagus. Guess what, I'm not afraid of her, you know, you are. Still gonna say that. From the flying monkeys are coming, I don't care who you are, you're crapping your pants. But they did confront it, they did lift through it. And so in the end, I found out that what they were looking for was in their own backyard. And so, in all of that, you know, you have, okay, you know, what, if it's not in my heart, if it's not in my brain, and I don't have the courage to do it, I need to find it. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I want to underscore that. Okay, that, you know, we have to wind down. But that is a beautiful sentiment for us to start to close up on. When we look back over the things that we've talked about today, and you said it a couple times in a couple of different ways, it's all building, it's all adding, the way you talked about training and other things and these transitional points in your life, they weren't just changing, it wasn't throwing out one, for sake of the other. It was adding on, it was building, it was foundation, it was whatever you want to call it. That's right. I really like that visual and I think very strongly encompasses you, in your philosophy, what we've talked about, before they kick it back to you to close out. If people want to reach out to you website, email, social media, phone, anything like that you can provide it to the folks listening.

Tommy Given:

Well, absolutely. So, I'm on Facebook under Tommy gGven. And also on Facebook at Green Mountain martial arts club. My email is [01:32:30-01:32:31]given@gmail.com. And I'll tell you where that nickname came from. We can end with that. And if you really need you to get a hold me and I didn't come out clear here. I'm sure whistlekick can provide any kind of links and that kind of thing. And if you're in the Central Vermont area, stop, you know, just say, Hey, I heard you on the podcast or I know Jeremy or I know this person I know that person. I don't know anybody I heard you on the radio, whatever that is, you'll find in dividing hope you'll have to put up with a 100 pound hound dog. So, there's, you know, you're welcome to stop in and my school is always open. I mean, I advertise a little bit. But being a not nonprofit school. No, the budgets aren't there many times and sometimes I have a really good student that wants to, you know, promote what we're doing, you know, advertise. But it's free. And I mean, totally free. Even the weapons are something I give out. I, you know, I operate on donations, and then I put everything back into the club. And that's how it operates. And the reason is free is you know, it's, it's my way of giving back what the arts have done for me, I can not if I live another 30 years teaching, give back what the arts have given to me and what people have poured into me, you know that that first, you know, Coach and Sensei and seaflo said hey try this work with this. I'm not giving up on you. 

So, I'm not giving up on you and I just refuse development and there's a lot of negative in the world right now. The political stripes are the worst I've seen in my lifetime. And remember I was a teenager in the 70s but I'm not giving up on humanity and I'm not giving up on anybody who happened to listen to this today either you know so that's where it is so do you are you and that's how I got the nickname or yeah let's let's close up with that. Okay, so um most people even my family call me Kato or Tommy. If you call me Tom or Thomas, you don't know me. That's plain and simple. I won't even respond. I'm not a time and a lot of time. There's nothing against people who go by those names. It's just my personality. You get to know me. I am silly and playful. I have a great life. Kato came from and even my parents are calling me that after a short time teachers in school called me that most people know me as Kato locally what happened was or coach Kato in the classes at that teaching in the public school, I did bring kung fu to public schools as well, a couple of local public schools have asked me to come in and do what I do for their kids in the public school, which I think is a great thing. But that being said, when I was first starting, and practicing outside, I grew up in the inner city, I grew up in the projects at that point in time. 

And the older kids were not nice, nasty, kind words. And so when I was outside practicing, and my father wouldn't be as good as I was, okay, if you're going to take this thing, what you're practicing, no, don't waste that guy's time. And my father made my first Sifu there. And today, he went by both titles. And, you know, he said, “Listen, I'm gonna make him practice on what you need to work on”. Good thing about my dad when it came to that, so I was practicing outside and the older kids were making fun of me. They were like, hey, what do you think of Kato from the Green Hornet? Now the Green Hornet was out in the 60s. But these kids are older than me. So they watched it all the time. And it was on reruns by that time, and everything and being smaller than I was, and long black hair and all that, that went with it and even brought up the fact that almond shaped eyes, you know, kids are me, they're nasty. 

They're like, oh, so he thinks he's Kato, what's the name stuck. And it's stuck. And it's stuck? Well, by the time I was in high school, the nickname became a badge of honor. Because that was pretty good. And, you know, I didn't get in a lot of scrapes, because they really need to eat if they could beat me. They knew they were in a fight. And so in that sense, and then you're obviously on the wrestling team. And you know, and I was fairly athletic. And I had a mouth. So it wasn't really wise, but I was quick, at the comeback type thing. And I wasn't afraid of confrontation, they didn't, you know, didn't care for it, obviously, but didn't avoid either. 

It became a badge of honor. And so that's the nickname that came from then so let's start it out, as you know, as a bad thing, or, you know, put down are people making fun of me, you know, like everything else in your life, that it can turn around to something pretty good. An just, you know, I don't think even though I didn't really pursue it that way, the fact that I ended up in Kung Fu and I've had taken Kata, Jeet Kune Do lessons and the philosophies of Bruce Lee kind of go with, you know, giving back and movement and that kind of thing and training and stuff like that. I think it was an honor to him as well. You know, it's a fact that, you know, I accept that. So that's it.