Episode 698 - Shidoshi Ron Van Clief
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief is a Martial Arts practitioner, instructor, and author, and competed at UFC 4 at the age of 51.
I just learned that Martial Arts is not just punching and kicking, it’s a form of life. A way of living. It’s a lifestyle. It isn’t just a technology for self-defense. And self-defense to me isn’t punching and kicking. It’s doing the best for yourself, making everyday a learning experience. It’s making yourself better in every way, everyday.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief - Episode 698
Shidoshi Ron "The Black Dragon" Van Clief is a martial arts legend. Born in Brooklyn, New York in 1943, he started martial arts training in his early teens. Ron Van Clief served in the U.S. Marine from 1960 to 1965 with a tour in the Vietnam War in 1965. Following his military service, he became a New York City Transit Police Officer from 1965 to 1968.
Ron Van Clief went on to become a five-time karate and kung fu World Champion and a 15-time All-American Champion. He has competed in both full-contact and non-contact karate tournaments in New York and several national tournaments.
His martial arts training began in the mid-1950s, when he later trained alongside Bruce Lee in Hong Kong and was nicknamed: "The Black Dragon”.
Van Clief was a student of martial arts masters Peter Urban, Frank Ruiz, and Moses Powell, as well as Wing Tsun founder Leung Ting, Modern Arnis (Remy Presas), and Brazilian jiu-jitsu (Joe Moreira).
On December 16, 1994 he competed in the 4th Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC 4) at age 51 against Brazilian jiu-jitsu champion Royce Gracie.
Van Clief is an author and creator of a number of instructional books and video recordings, as well as a film choreographer and actor appearing in several films. Ron Van Clief continues to conduct seminars and attend training with his son in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.
Show Notes
Check out Shidoshi Ron Van Clief on the following sites:
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hello everyone and welcome. This is whistlekick Martial Arts Radio episode 698. My guest today, Shidoshi Ron Van Clief. So, stick around. It's an amazing episode. I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host for the show, founder here at whistlekick, where everything we do is in support of the traditional martial arts. What does that mean? Well, go to whistlekick.com and see what that means. All the stuff that we do, all the things we're involved in from martial journal to all these other programs and websites that we run, they're all influenced, whistlekick.com. So check those out, including the store. It's one of the ways that we pay the bills over here, find something you like using the code PODCAST15 helps us know on the back end that listeners viewers like you are supporting what we do.
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Today's guest probably doesn't need much of an intro for very many of you. He's been around for a while. And he's been doing it for a while. This guy is his history. And I don't mean that in the sense that he's passed. I mean that he's been there. And he's been around. And he's been part of so many things with amazing people. The names that come up in this episode, unlike just about anyone we've ever had. And it's compelling, and it's on and it's it. It's a great episode, it is the episode that I hoped it would be. I hope you enjoy it. I'll see you at the outro. Hello, sir. How are you? I'm so thankful you're doing this. I really appreciate your time.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
You're very welcome.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, let's do it. You know, often most of the time, when we start a show I have the guests kind of introduce themselves. And we start off with a number of things like that. We don't have to do it here. So, I'm kind of thrown off as the interviewer because I don't have to do part of what I often do. So, I'm going to fall back on something that I often start with, or at least get to pretty quickly. And that's why because I think why in the martial arts is a question that is not asked often enough. So why did you start training?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I started training when I was 15 years old. I was a gymnast in Boys High School in Brooklyn. And one day I was invited to the St. John's Community Center, where I met Grandmaster Moses Powell. And he was my superhero, my Batman, my Superman, all that. He was a lot of people’s superheroes. He's an amazing, amazing man. And his martial arts prowess is undeniable, and he inspired me to really look at the martial arts from different viewpoints. He introduced me to Grand Master Peter Urban, who later on became my mentor in dojo, and he did so. But I started with Moses until I went into the Marine Corps, 1960 and continued my martial arts education in Okinawa, where I started sharing in addition, which will open our karate systems. It's a some cool Jetsons there. I came back to the United States in 1965 where I started really maintaining my relationship with Grandmaster Peter Urban and told him to learn how to kick and punch. So that was a great union thought. That's it, then it was probably my most prolific teacher. A teacher at the dojo, which has been the foundation of my martial arts. I met initially in 1967 the concepts of credo, which was Legion at the time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Can I ask you a question about Bruce? Because we've had a few people on the show over the years who met Bruce Lee. But actually, I'm thinking of one particular email I received from someone who hasn't been on the show. And before Bruce Lee, it seems everyone could tell he was destined to be Bruce Lee. Was that your sense?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I just thought he was a very good martial artist. He was philosophical, which you didn't see that much of in the 60s. We had the same sort of fitness regimen. I was a gymnast from junior high school on to college. We both need that if you don't keep the machine together, nothing else works no matter what the technology you know adhere to. I like boosts that open my mind to a different way of looking at martial arts. I would say that he uncensored herbal verbal most influential in my life. And as far as the mental expanse of martial arts. They both allowed me to explore visualization, allowing me to look at what was to be or it happened.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And sports psychology before that was really a term. Yes.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
And they both helped me develop my instincts and my inner thoughts, my inner self. Most martial artists that have it were more involved and just the physical realization of the techniques and not really being why, how, where, when all of that other stuff. Which really is important because if you don't have that other stuff, no matter how good your technique is, it will never work. So I have never been better. I just keep plugging on. I took off my red belt when I was 68 and I put on a white belt at Gracie school here in Hawaii. It was a brilliant move, and allowed me to get rid of a lot of stuff like me and be able to continue my workouts without getting punched and kicked in the face.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is that a difficult decision?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Because you know, when you get older your body hurts. It's nothing like getting kicked in their balls then punched in the face. It doesn't really work when you're older. Your body does you just often or this way it should look good. So right about a lot of injuries over 65 years of karate competition. Over 920 minutes and participated. So I had a lot of injuries. So I started studying jujitsu when I was 68. And I realized the injuries were 1% of what I got in karate, or kung fu or whatever. And you know what, you know, I had a bunch of tickets that you don't really need good practice. You just need to keep your body in the proper shape so that you can do those things. Don't think that after 60 years of martial arts, that I was negligent in my ground game. I realized that when I fought Hoist Gracie at UFC for over 21/26. So, I decided to go into it and everyone thought I had lost my mind. But if you don't challenge yourself how can you grow? So, since the UFC. I've had to get dressed in the [00:09:53-00:09:54], Jose Marrero, Gracie. I've had several mentors. But I've been really concentrated for the past 11 years with Hoist Gracie, and Professor Hanshi Rocky, in the[00:10:15-00:10:17]. And I started competing when I was 74. So I've competed about a dozen times. It's fascinating. It's fascinating.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And as someone who has competed extensively at a very high level for a very long time, coupled with your statement that let's say the body is changing. Let's sum it up there.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
For sure. What? Anybody can do jujitsu, anybody can do karate.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So when you go to compete in jiu jitsu, what is your goal? Is your goal to win? I mean, you're obviously got it. History is a fierce competitor. Does that shut off?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I don't know if it is to win. To me, Jiu jitsu is survival. For me, I put about eight years in defense only. In jiu jitsu. For the past four years, I've cross trained and added submissions and aggressive technology to my arsenal. From first firstly, you don't want to get hurt. It's easy to get hurt in jiu jitsu. I had five ribs broken, I did through my tongue and my stitches in my tongue. You can be injured in jujitsu, but it's not the same thing. No. I'm enjoying the experience, more so than I've ever enjoyed any martial arts experience that I can remember. Yeah, that's it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. Yeah. Keep going.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Gracie Academy allows me to. It's the highlight of my day. I would probably go crazy. If I didn't have that training a couple times a week. I only go to three times a week. But when I go, I always get four or five rounds and six minute round sparring. And all the guys younger in the 20s and 30s. So it's beautiful, you know, and I've been like the the dojo choking dummy for about six years. Now starting to reverse that, I was able to submit one of the purple belts that has been dogging me for three years or four years. I finally submitted them three times in one night, I went home, I was extremely happy. You know, extremely. I'm now submitting the blue, but it was always easy to submit the white pills, they just pass out they try to progress. You know, they've got to pressure you out that it's too easy to get away from but the purples and the browns and the blacks and so technically it is so it's a beautiful, beautiful. There is no one off. That's the everything, the cure all but I believe if you balance your training between standard game and ground game, you become more of a balanced rounded fighter or student. I prefer students that fight I'm really enjoying the competing. I of course I want to win. I always try my best before the pandemic. What if the world's in Las Vegas, I lost my second match. But the guy lost who won the whole deal for the day. So I felt really really fucking good. You don't I mean, it took them he only won by two points. So it's not like it was a big win because he didn't submit his decision but I'm gonna compete next month. And it's 79. I'm going into the 185 pound purple belts division and there's nobody near my age and there's no age brackets on this ever. They have over 50 brackets. I've never seen anybody in that wreck. I went to their brother's show up and…
Jeremy Lesniak:
You’d rather show up and win.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
To whatever weight division and color belt division. I formed into them to think about the age differential. So, I wind up going in with these 20 year old guys. And they're great because that's why I roll with it in the dojo every night anyway. Yeah, so To me, I'm disappointed that I never see anybody over 50 actually rolling on
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why do you think that is?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
And this is my own personal opinion, it's either injuries, or laziness. It can only be those two things. I mean, I have a lot of injuries, you don't have a shoulder replacement. I've had a bunch of injuries, you know. But I can't stop until I get what I want from this. And what I want from this is to balance my whole mental, physical, spiritual essence into one malleable, useful instrument for me to make my life better than that. It's really simple.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You use the word technology? A couple times. I've never heard anyone use that term in the context of martial arts. What do you mean when you say technology?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
This is a technique that you use, not just the physical technique, but the mental technique that gives you the physical technique. Example, when you go to a match, you immediately want to take the person down into that, I mean, that's what guys go right out there dropping, dropping, putting a guard and going over some takedown or something and they try to finish you off. The concept is real, that you may contact, you close the gap, you take the person down, you put them in a position where they either spasm or panic and give you a limb, and you submit that limb. It's really simple, it's a progression. It's not even, it's like chess, move out, vicious, Move out, move out. And you set a plan. It took me at least 10 years to be able to get an appointment. Because I did not have enough technical knowledge to string movements together. That's what I was saying about the mental part. If you cannot visualize before you do it, you're not going to do it. Because it takes 1000s of breaths in order to condition your body to do this stuff without thinking about it. And that's what's happening.
Now with me, that's 11 years old. These big guys jump in, they take me down and pressure, try to pressure pass and I just relax. Let them burn out. Eventually they're going to give them something, they're going to be off balance, they're going to give me a limb, they're going to let me get a grip in, something's gonna happen. And I'm going to be able to take advantage of it or a shrimp out, I just get out of guards, the back door or whatever. So it's a lot different from when a karate guy goes in, he punches you in the face while teaching the balls. That's the end of the story. You know, but with this, the ability of control is the most I've ever seen in any art, like judo, similar to Aikido. But very close in as far as you have inches to move in, not feet, you know? And what I love about the jiu jitsu guys is that they're not afraid of getting hit. They want you to throw something so they'll do something like this. So we hit this, then they grab a limb once they grab, you know, they go to take you right down.
You don't, I mean it's simple. They go to the clench once they go to the clench, you are going down. If you don't know what's happening at that point. You submitted your choked out Anwar triangle Camorra Omoplata I mean, they got a dozen things they can do on the way down. So I'm, I'm really, really enjoying it. It is truly the highlight of my day. That's awesome. And I go even when I don't feel like my body is hurting, like I went to the gym the day before, and it takes a day to recover from the gym or to jiu jitsu for me now, because when I go I put 110% off. You know what I mean? Normally when I leave the jujitsu school, if I don't hold on to the bannister, I will definitely pass on full downstairs because I had nothing left. That's how hard you go, even still always give myself at least five rounds of sparring. Sometimes on the way out the door I'm barely making it out the door, and a black. They'll say you got one more and I said, Sure. Just jump right back on that night and I give him one more. But I'm always exhausted after class. Always looks like I just got out of the shower sweating for 35 minutes after. Yeah. Some amazing
Jeremy Lesniak:
Was that always your approach to training to make sure you leave the tank empty?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What's the reason to come if you're not going to empty the tank? You get me?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, has that has that been your your philosophy to life with everything or is that something for Mr. Powell put in to you or…
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
To life?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Do it, do it right.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Thinking that kind of stuff, you know I just find that Martial Arts isn't just that striking and kicking and punching. It's a form of life. It's a way of living. It's a lifestyle. It isn't just a technology for self defense. And self defense to me isn't budging. Getting is doing the best for yourself, making everyday a learning experience. You know, that's what self defense is. So better in every way every day. It's pretty simple. But as you get older, it's going to be next year. We don't waste any more time on bullshit. No more time in negative thinking, not wasted. i just tried to think the best that we can help everybody in our circle, how to sound if you make yourself better. You make your community better. You make the world better.
All of that has always been people who don't realize that we're all linked in. So I'm going to jiu jitsu. Tonight, I'm exhausted from jet lagged from the Hall of Fame. I was in New Jersey, New Jersey, Columbus, Ohio. Just wanted it to end. To this, Dr. Rob Goldman. I was inducted into the International Sports Hall of Fame. Congratulations. It was really too much. You know, I mean, those things make me very nervous, giving me acceptance speeches and all that stuff in the midst of honorees, it's just mind boggling that I'm stepping into that circle. It's kind of surreal. But it was a wonderful experience. My wife was happy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What do you take from your karate, your prior training? What have you brought from that that's been an asset into Jiu Jitsu?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Only the mental stuff. Only the mental stuff. Never quit. Keep going. Exploring your opponent's weaknesses exceeds your limits. No. Constant pressure, soft and hard technology. Very little from the physical point of view from karate itself. In jiu jitsu, I was always a physical fitness person. Now, when I was in the Marine Corps, I wanted to put your bracket for two minutes 257 Push Ups. It wasn't it wasn't broken for about eight to 10 years at record. Because it's easy when you're doing the structure has a 45 to get your head. You can do 300 Push Ups. And that's what he said. that's what if you step by period. So that was it. You know, I came up through a very difficult time in American history. No, I was stationed in the Marine Corps in 1960. I was lynched by the [00:24:20-00:24:22] in 1963. in Kingston, North Carolina, spent three months in the hospital, broke my jaw, knocked on deep and hurt my left arm many times. Now there were very bad times. For black people for not drinking out of a faucet that said, black only, you know. I've seen the good and the bad. And all of it really is determined by how I think about myself. How I think about myself, is how you think about the world. If you have confidence in yourself to do that you are consistent and expand in this world and fear is the killer. Here is hate. If you fear anything, you're in trouble.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, you're not afraid of anything.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
No, nothing. I've been shot. I've been stabbed. I've had all of those things happen. shot, stabbed, enriched. What would I be afraid of?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nothing. You're still here, I guess.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Have a great wife. I have beautiful kids, great grandkids. Wife is a bush. You know and I've been through hell, I guess. Anybody that reads 79 years old has seen a lot of bullshit. Was this all kinds of insane stuff? That friend's family, my mother and father both passed away. My brother was killed in Vietnam. So you see a lot of stuff. So many of my friends have died in the past year, martial arts icons. It's just it's very, very sad.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So we've lost some wonderful people in the last year for sure.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
So maybe every month all my buddies, you know, we call die. They were all giants. The list goes on and on. When they will be on their list. Now some will say, Yeah, I thought the name was too much. Right. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think for quite a few folks you are already on that list. You don't have to put yourself there. But you know, they've done their best. Can't stop them. I want to talk about the Giants. You know, you phrased it that way. And I think that's a good way to put it. You know, when we look at martial arts, we look at the world of martial arts. When we think about who do we look up to? It's folks of your generation. We don't have people.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Because they were the Pioneers. If we're not those guys, and I'm not one of those guys. I'm in the generation after those guys. Okay. Moses Powell, Peter Urban, Ronald Duncan, Ed Parker. That crew was the first group, Gary Alexander, the [00:27:41-00:27:43]. They were the first generation we're in the next generation. Although we've been helping them, the spreading of the word. Yes, they brought the word here. Gary Alexander what Okinawan karate, Parker, Kempo karate. Urban Goju-Ryu. So they were the roots of martial arts in America. I'm part of the fruit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I would say that your group is better known than their group. You know if I imagine the people listening to this right now, yeah, far more people know your name than Peter urban.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I know. It's very sad. It's very sad, but you don't know the history. History is important. You don't know history. You don't know why you know what you think?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thinking about how to ask this. No, I'll just take it head on.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Please.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's a lot of finger pointing internally, in the martial arts. It's been there. From what I can see it's been there forever. Is there a way that we all do what we do without it? Can martial arts exist without…
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
This, but it can't. It's the way people think today and then canceled culture. There's a whole bunch of stuff happening now. That's when they say critical race theory. That's just American history. There's so much bullshit now. I don't want to get into politics or anything but the system that we're living in, could be better for regular people. That's going to say it should be better for reading. It should not just be for you. You need that's why martial arts is so wonderful. It doesn't matter if you're a billionaire, or a person that lives on the streets. And I've had both students Oh, once they understand the capacity that they have to change, a change. And seeing that change, it's beautiful they open up to the possibilities of life. You know, like millionaires, I've had a couple of those as clients. They were brought to death, man. They got all the toys, they got all the cash, they got everything, the women, they've got everything you think that you want, if you become rich, and they're bored to death, because what's motivating them? Because there's nothing substantial in them. You know, money's cool, I've been there and done that. It's a great thing. But it's not empathy. I have friends that think if you don't, if you're not a millionaire, you're abundant. Can you imagine that? Boom, not just you're just a regular guy. You're a bomb. Wow. It's kind of lethal.
You know, and I have friends that when they had the stock market crash, it was $100 million. And they were ready to kill themselves. It's the world that we live in. That's why martial arts is so beautiful. It gives you the power, but power from within to withstand all of the pressure and all of the obstacles and challenges in front. That's what martial arts is. It's a people go that allows you if you let it build yourself and not just your physical progress. Sure. As martial arts is only 10% physicals. 90%.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm right there with you. I fully agree. As you know, we often on this show, through conversation through our topic episodes, espouse the non physical virtues and especially the non combative aspects of martial arts. But when you started when you were coming up, did people talk about that? When did that start?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
That was Pete Urban. Okay. Everybody else? It just killed his focus.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. So what was he saying? There was a counter message to that. Yeah. So what was Peter Urban, you said he was the first one that you heard really say that.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
His first thing is, you would say defeat yourself first to know, you have to think about that in order to understand it. And it takes years to understand those types of coherence. To defeat yourself needs to understand yourself from a realistic viewpoint, not one of those. Well, I'm okay but I know you have to be real and upfront 100% with no chaser, who you are, what you are, why you are what you are, and where you are going from there. That was Urban. This whole thing was based on the thought process of how you got from here to there, which was your martial arts life and you realize, it was quite brilliant. ever get a chance to read the karate dojo by Peter urban. It is an amazing thesis on the mental aspects of mental spiritual aspects of martial arts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're seeing it here in everything I've read about him. I have not read that book. But the accounts that I've read of him. Everyone says he was decades ahead of his time.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Have it this way. We were brilliant men. Brilliant minute. I lived with him for three years in Chinatown, the dojo reshift some of the best times in my life just within watching him play Chopin on his piano
Jeremy Lesniak:
While eating any stories from that time that you will share.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Need to come down to our Sensei Urban’s school and sit there. He's playing chess with Bruce and was smoking. We were just chillin 'you know, and Just listening to them expounds on their psychophysical doctrines? No, they both were the most philosophic in their basic form of martial arts. They thought of the higher realm of martial arts education beyond the technical. And that was a beautiful thing to witness, you know. And if it were not for that type of influence from Urban, I had a lot of fun. I've had so many great mentors that were able to share that type of knowledge to me. Sorry, I wasn't open enough, during those years, to be able to understand and appreciate that knowledge, really, two years later.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, of course, were you not open or not ready.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I was open but not ready. I think it's a big difference that when I came back from Vietnam, after my service in the Marine Corps, I was not as open minded as I have been previously. So it didn't change my way of dealing with things like, PTSD, or whatever, whatever. Yeah, it changed. That changed a great deal. And it's taken years to get back to. Not yet. But to get back on the right path. And so, you know, I started writing, I'm finishing a book called sentences. It's the layman's guide to Zen psychotherapy. I'm about one week from finishing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Zen psychotherapy. Can you define that for us? That's not a term I'm familiar with.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
The whole concept of Zen is the spiritual mental coordination of your mindset. A Zen psychotherapist is a person that uses the principles and thought patterns to develop your mental, physical and spiritual essence, during this life cycle. The essence of the bite you take, isn't it, sir? Since he would give me the first one. Let's go. Let's go means that Go. Keep going. There is nothing else. Let's go, flame the swamp, flame the vein for the essence of your life. So things like that. Let's keep going. There is nothing else and then next. So it is a circle of mental, spiritual and physical continuity that allows you to adhere to basic Zen principles to develop the right mindset to live in the world today. Excellent psychotherapy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sounds like [00:38:31-00:38:31]
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Oh, yeah, you know, because of my PTSD and my dementia, right, I've rewritten this book for time. So now, my latest version is almost like a picture book with the sentences at the bottom or in the frame of the picture with a space open for a person to give their definition of what that sentence huh? It's almost like a workbook.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, it sounds like longtime listeners know my affinity for Joe Hyams book Zen in the Martial Art.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I know Joe.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That doesn't surprise me. But what you're describing sounds like a continuation of that sort of concept in that approach and reading that book knows it's short and it's very digestible and actionable. Yes. So how did you meet? How did you meet Joe Hyams?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
I met Hyams and Bruce Lee. Back in the mid 60s or late 60s at airports, National Tournament. I went there to fight. You know, I used to go to tournaments all the time, and I lost to Steve Muhammad. You know, Steve?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I know that name.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Steve Muhammad is a marine, former law enforcement officer, then California Kempo style was under a park. We are still the fastest I've ever seen. So that's a recommended set. Yeah, it's like a question like that. And so I lost him in the eliminations. No, yes. So you know that they will not remember that. And so evil over me, sleep is probably at three years old. And still looking really good. Technique is phenomenal.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you stay in touch with them?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
So many are alive. So many have died. In the past couple of years. I was supposed to do a film with Leo Fong, who just passed away. And he just sent me the script. It was one of those zombie movies called the Savage Seven. And you know, he just passed away, he said that I wanted to film in the Philippines. He's a great guy. Really great guy. He put my nose in the hotel. Fine, on this will get ready to go to the set. And don't know, we'll see. And I was farming the hotel. They'll say no, no, no, do it this way. And hit me in the nose. He broke my nose. This is on the way to the set. Right? And so I'm like, super. I split it up myself. You know, I mean, the blood is pouring out of my nose like that. Too big pigs with the total pay. But yeah, like I said, and I'm trying to stop the bleeding so I can do this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, what a riot. Gosh, but I think anytime somebody can say what the first test was like, he was a great guy. He broke my nose. You know that. That is true friendship.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
He went there. And he was my mentor. Leo Fong looked like 90 years old. That was working out every day. His cheese salad stuff was magnificent. Very clean, very sharp, very sensitive, very, you know. So it's just sad to see so many paths.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's part of why we do what we do. Because I want to talk to everybody, I want to record all the right stories. When you think back on your competitive time, I'm sure people have asked you know, who was the toughest component opponent or who was the most memorable fighter? Who was your favorite person? Who was the one that you knew when they were across from you? It was yeah, it was probably gonna be a rough fight. But you were gonna have a great time.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
So many of those. So many of those that we'll study with Louis Delgado. He was an amazing fighter. I introduced him to Bruce Lee. And he chose championship and they became friends and Louis moved out to California and trained with Bruce at the extension of his house. knew he was a great fighter. I saw all three fights. He had Chuck Norris. You know, Louie was a brilliant fighter. Chuck was a brilliant fighter.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like people don't give him enough credit for his competitive days.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Well, I gave him credit for his competitive days because I was around to see him. Right. But people that were not around during that time. He didn't compete for a long time. Probably competed for about six years. Intense, you know? But he was a smart fighter. He was always fit. Fearless. You know? You gotta not forget that one. He was a technician. He was a smart fighter. He had a really good counter fight. Really good counter fight. He would make you a bat so he could count Smart, good fighter. Joe Lewis. He was a great fighter. Someone I enjoyed sparring with. There were just so many good guys. There was a gentleman by the name of William Oliver. One of them is from the Kyokushinkai for the massive system. Little guy like five foot six, beat everybody, but to Japan everybody, no matter what way passed away already, but he was amazing, amazing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What made him, you're talking about some of these guys. You know, you talked about Chuck as being a very smart fighter. What made this gentleman such a good fighter
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Although, I'd say 5’6. Hit like he was 225
Jeremy Lesniak:
It sounds like Kyokushin
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Extremely fast. Unbelievable, like flexibility. Kick real hard to the head with mostly kicks. Wow. I have punched him in the chest, knock them down. He'd get up and round and take me right to teach a brilliant, brilliant fighter. And I'm 190 pounds. When I was at my best I was one 85. But he was on it. Then it was Joe who did amazing taekwondo. Now was an amazing kicker. He was the guy that beat me the day that Bruce Lee named me the black back. I lost my finals Grand championship match to Joe Hayes, after all, the American Championship moves the sitting main side. And I came out in the middle of black dragon. So what I lost is no, no, you're the Black Dragon. It's what I saw in you when you were fighting. Didn't matter whether you lost or won. I saw that spirit and then went back to the hotel to smoke, and we hung out for a few hours there. He was a very down to earth guy and lots of people who said like he goes he knew what he knew. And he didn't care what he thought. And that's a beautiful thing. And I don't equate that with one having an ego. And that means he was aware of himself, he knew himself and he didn't have to explain himself or important bullshit that he wasn't interested in. I mean, I'm with that, you know, the less you say on it, the better
Jeremy Lesniak:
Following his own path doesn't matter if you think it's the right path. That he was his path, his choice. Your opinion on it's relevant.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Introduced me to Steve McQueen, and then introduced me to [0048:00-00:48:20]. Okay. What a nice man, what a really nice man. You had arthritis so bad in this thing. This we did cheese out, we used to hurt his hands, those fingers were always paying in pain, but a really nice man and very motivated, you know, very, very motivated, tall, skinny guy. Flexible, interesting times that advocated to, to speak of this. Or important in that. We thought on the same level of martial arts. We believe there was a mental, physical, spiritual collaboration. Unless we were in touch with all three of those factors, you weren't really balanced, you weren't really training properly. You know? When I started studying martial arts, those conversations never even happened. The punches kick this thread. Are you doing so? You know, and people might lose people like at Parker, Pete urban Moses battle, they got into the essence of these different forms. And it didn't matter whether it was a psychophysical aspect or just structural. Sensitive No, they were able to employ this ability for you to become the inquisitive question, these different techniques? How would it work if I was small? You know, I mean, all techniques have to be adapted to the person that is easily all of them. There's no one who can do the same bunch the same way. Exactly. It's impossible. We're different. Everybody's completely different. Each, you know, and in how we interpret things is different. We can all say, Yeah, this is a sun face. But there's a lot to that, you know. I've always wanted to find the easiest way to accomplish a mission. And I found in life, there is no easy way. In that you have to put in the work. You have to put in the time. I mean, I put 11 years in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, and I feel great that I was able to get this far. I mean, I started at 16 years old. Everybody on the mat was 20. No, and you know, spastic right down. So they tried to kill me. For three years. I was like the jumping dummy, you know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Did they really even try to kill you? Oh, my God. Really? Did they know who you were?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
And there were times where I couldn't swallow food. After I left the dojo. That's all been my neck and throat. Ah, everyone is joking.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You say Come on, let's stand up a little more. Well, even this out.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
It means that in the dojo, I know I almost got out of Hanshi Rocky's dojo, because I accidentally punched one guy in the face. Then I actually hit a guy with an elbow as they had when he mounted me, just instinctively. Yeah. Oh, and I get thrown out of the dojo twice. And if one more time, apposite had to learn how to control instinct, not the technique, the instinct
Jeremy Lesniak:
The thing that you would train for so long, you had to train a bit.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Wow. But now I'm actually comfortable. I'm actually comfortable with someone on top of the either mounted outside control, or whatever. I'm actually comfortable. It took a long time. And I know what it's like for someone who said, I'm just trying to get your wrist or your arm to armbar you or something. It's not a nice feeling at all. Going for your neck. Yeah. But now, it doesn't matter what they do. I learned not to its grips, wrist or arm anyway. They canceled me because they didn't have enough utensils.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've heard Brazilian Jiu Jitsu described as a puzzle that you get to a certain point. And it's a puzzle, because especially people who are roughly similar in scale, and they're not trying to smash each other, you've got that time and you're like, okay, they're there. And they're there. And I don't Okay, and I want to, and I find that part fascinating. I've done just enough to know, I know nothing.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Well, I've been there 11 years, I know nothing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I know less than that. Much less than that.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
It's fascinating. You know. If I physically had the fight, most of the guys that submitted me in class, I would beat them all. Because none of them are used to getting a hit, first of all 95% of them have no backing system. Their best bet is to clench and take you down. Well, if you hit them and kick them and function and things like that, before it gets to that point, you stand a really good chance of not going really well. Now what I did in my first three years was learn how to not get taken. If those six away get those mates that way, you know. The concept is pretty easy to understand. The ability to use those concepts while you're inspiring is a different story. You got someone crazy. Shouldn't you spend your energy to achieve it? They may be attacking your bad wrist or attacking me at something and this is psychological stuff going through your head not like in karate kick punch, what that means make that move. If they can go to the page and punch him in the face, he's done. It's not that way in jujitsu, everything is done close enough to make contact to put you in a position that you find uncomfortable, too uncomfortable as organic as you're going to give them something, whether it's um, that whatever they even take advantage of that. It's a really, really, really simple concept. Sure. Yeah. I have not that many techniques. Say there are about 24 techniques that you just use as an alphabet you develop your fluency
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you think you would have appreciated it as much if you'd started at a younger age? It should not be any shot because I was in a rock and cycling stage right now. I understand that and this is only my opinion, I would have been very good at this because I like it. I really like the pose counter. I really like the ability to be right there in your face making moves and it's the vibe of the fittest mind that doesn't that chest that you do to get to those positions, The fascinating part we do drills in jiu jitsu their plan starts already in the person and we know that God first off you got to pass it in order to do something;
And lots of guys get stuck when I first started I would get caught in the guys and it would take me it's environment together that's way too long to be patient you know way too long. And now when people put me in the guy two seconds two seconds I climb right through the middle of pressuring them that they're only between the makalah take the step around done go pass I mean this there's so many ways to pass the guide now that the God no longer represents a problem trying to string techniques together so that if I go for armbar you defended, what do I do next?
I want to automatically go to the next. Now watch teacher also breaks in 67 years of watching roll you know we roll by by lines you know what you go down the line and submit 20 f*cking guys in a row man in like six seconds in a hurry and that you know the old trying really hard because they just saw the last guy get f*cking jumped. Excuse my language. But he just froze down a lot and he's not even sweating.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Because we seconds and you always told me you slow down you don't need as much as you relax. took the lead in understanding this role with only a partner. He hasn't trained in the year since a pandemic. It was 340 pounds at six.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He is a very large person.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
He’s the guy that broke my rib cage. Okay, I grew up with my best friends. I've rolled with that guy. Well over 100 times. so tough that when I put a guillotine on something, I can't finish him and I got it sunk in really deep because he has a 25 inch neck. My fingers hurt on the gable grip holding it trying to finish the job. I had them when they picked me up like a piece of garbage and threw me on my back and hurt for months. My back hurt for months. not weeks, months, at least six months sensitive my hip joint.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Not given to us making your work for it and I'm sure that's why you like him.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
We are bound together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, that's great. Yeah. That's awesome.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
He hasn't been to training in about a year now. Maybe I missed him because whenever he was there, he'd be the first person I've run to, to roll with. Because he was always a challenge, you know, six foot nine 340.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now the leverage against that is a little different than anybody else's.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
He started jiu jitsu when he was 11. I'm only 35 years old. He started jiu jitsu when he was 11 to 35 years old. You know how much training that is? Wow. And with the same, together very strong. Once he puts you in my slide control, or announcement, either crane to get out of that. You don't make any room if you do believe there's no more breath coming in after that one. You know what I'm saying? And there were so many really good matches. Yep, it's out of our control. The other night couldn't just jump to the other side by using his hands and did a handstand on my chest to get on the other side of it twice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Wow. You know, that's that it is athletic, and sounds unpleasant to be on the receiving end of your…
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Chest hurts, you can't breathe out. It's torture. You know? What do I tell him whenever I say can I get one? Inspiring. They have inspired so many good guys there. And it's great. No, no, it should be. It's wonderful. I don't know how people can do something like martial arts for themselves. It's totally for you. The two brains of the spirit are for your heart. Instead, everything.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, it came back. You had two reasons before. Fear laziness. I think for most people, they're afraid. Yeah. And that's okay. And we just as an industry need to be better about letting them know. Hey, it's okay to be afraid. Give it a shot anyway.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Yeah. Yeah. My first two years of jiu jitsu was head. My neck was sore all the time. Everybody was trying to…
Jeremy Lesniak:
They weren't taking it easy on you.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
And my Sensei Roger Rocky would always put up with the tough guy. It's okay, you know, when I need my blue belts, go through the gauntlet on your hands and knees and that's like 40 guys with me with adults? Bad skin. I had welts. Really bad was the one that hit Minnesota, my neck kind of big. Well, I hate to go into purple books. And then somebody said to me, no, you don't have to do that. I said, Look, what is it if I don't do what everybody else does? I don't want any spiritual dreams because I'm an old guy. You mean I can't get on my knees and have the guys with me forward and back like they do everybody else. Fuck now. I have to do the whole thing. Exactly what everyone else says. I don't want any break at all. You know, I mean, you know, you know what I mean that I do. I'm like everyone else. And I don't. Don't call me grandmaster. Similar preparedness. I'm just Ron, the purple belt. Let's roll. Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Beautiful. So let's go back to that book for a minute. So you said you've got about a week left on it. Is there? Is there a plan for when that'll come out?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
It's gonna be out next month.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Yeah, I already have an editor. And I'm just repositioning some things, a couple of pictures. I did like out of a final game and I'm just gonna change a picture of something that's nearby. that does not tell us that maybe 100 sentences each with a picture termination space for people to give their interpretation. I want to have the workbook aspect. Because most don't read something and, you know, in your mind, you may think, as I said, the key to what I'm thinking about. This way, it allows you to put that down, where you can actually see what you think. And once you can visualize your thoughts, I think it's more. It's important because from the system, it's important that you see these things. You can interpret this better. And so that's why I decided to work.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is this your first book?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
This is my 11th book. Okay. I wrote my first book in 1980. And it was the textbook for the Secret Service. I was the senior combatives instructor for the Secret Service from ‘83 to 1993. At the World Trade Center 10,000 agents there. It was fascinating.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because what was projected was so different, so specific.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Fascinating, it was a really good job. I got some really nice letters from the President. Directly. This is a good date, you know, and I left in 93 because they hadn't bought the first for me in the World Trade Center garage sale, and I used to park there all the time. I've been teaching history and if that doesn't work I don't know how many hundreds of times I went in that building. You know, my troops are mighty over my shoulder. Go to the gym to teach the guys I have to, I gotta get moving. Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I was about ready to start winding out. We have a couple more minutes to close up.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Go back to last night. My wife had to pack and go to California on another gate that she's doing. So you even have a good chance to spend the night with my wife and know about it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let me just say thank you. How can I? How can people stay in touch with you?
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Um, well, yeah. My email, Ronvanclief@yahoo.com can go to either one of my websites. BLACKDRAGONFAN.COM or RONVANCLIEF.COM. And either way. I'm on Facebook, Instagram, all that stuff.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And final words for the listeners.
Shidoshi Ron Van Clief:
Exceed your limits. Do the best that you can in this life. It goes, you know what? Don't get a second chance. Let's keep going. And there is nothing else. Peter Urban. Thank you. 56. Thank you so very much.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Shidoshi thanks for coming on. Thanks for the utterly amazing episode. I really appreciate all that you've done. And all that you're doing means the world to me. And I find it incredibly inspiring. Listeners, viewers, I've got a feeling you're in the same boat that you found some power in this episode. You took some good stuff from it.
You want to go deeper on it, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com If you sign up for the newsletter, when you're all done checking stuff out on there, or whistlekick.com, think about supporting us.Could be free like leaving a review. Hey, these guys did some cool stuff. I appreciate it. Five stars, you know, whatever it is. Apple podcasts, Facebook, Google. Spotify, can't leave a review, but you can leave us some stars. We're doing well on Spotify. Leave us some stars. You've got Spotify installed, please. You gotta listen to 30 seconds then you can do it.
Want me to come out to your school and teach a seminar? I'd love to. I love meeting people. I love connecting with the listeners. So let's do that. Right to Jeremy@whistlekick.com, we'll find a day. Our social media @whistlekick. If you've got topic or guest suggestions, you can email me. That's it. Until next time, train hard, smile. And have a great day.