Episode 766 - Mr. Don Wilson

Mr. Don Wilson is a Martial Arts practitioner, Actor, and 11-time Kickboxing champion.

As a Martial Artist we have to be able to go from 0 to 100 mph and I just took it into the kickboxing ring with me… In the first couple minutes of the fight, I know everything I’ll need to know.

Mr. Don Wilson - Episode 766

Don “the Dragon” Wilson’s humble beginnings started in Cocoa Beach, Florida, where he was born and raised in the shadow of Cape Canaveral, where his father worked as an engineer for NASA. Don was an honors student at high school, and his quest was to follow in his father’s footsteps. He attended the Coast Guard Academy, where he studied engineering, and wanted to become a military officer, but a lesson from his older brother, Jim, who had already been studying kung-fu changed his life forever.

In this episode, Mr. Don Wilson shares his journey to the martial arts, Hollywood career, competitions, and more. Listen to learn!

Show notes

You may check out Mr. Don Wilson’s Twitter and website

Show Transcript

You can read the transcript below.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Welcome, everyone. This is whistlekick martial arts radio episode 766. And today's guest is Don, the dragon Wilson. I'm Jeremy Lesniak. I'm your host here for the show. I founded whistlekick because I love traditional martial arts. I've been a traditional martial artist all my life. And I know I'm not alone. And so we as an organization, do a whole bunch of things for you that traditional martial artists of the world do. If you want to show your support, well, you've got a lot of things that you can do. Start at whistlekick.com, and check out all the stuff that we've got going on, there is a good chance, it's something we're doing resonates for you. And if you simply engage, participate, and purchase, that's all we need. If you want the fullest experience for this or any other episode, go to whistlekickmartialartsradio.com Yes, your podcast player on your phone or tablet does give you the show notes. But there are things that it filters out of the show notes, things that you're going to see at the website that you are not going to see on your little phone. And let's face it, most of you listen to it while you drive anyway. So whether you are watching this on YouTube, or listening in a podcast player, the fullest experience you can get is at whistlekick martialartsradio.com. 

While you're over there, you can check out all the episodes we've ever done. You can sign up for our newsletter, you can throw us a tip, and you could do all sorts of good stuff. And why don't you do that stuff because we are working hard to connect, educate and entertain the traditional martial artists of the world, folks just like you? And if you want to support our work, let me give you a couple of specific examples. You could buy something, you could follow us on social media, or you could leave a review. But maybe you wanted to know that today's episode was coming up, the only place we release that information is on our Patreon. And that membership starts at just two bucks a month. There are also other tiers with all kinds of other good stuff. Now if you want the whole list if you want, Hey, Jeremy, where's the one place I can go and see all the things I could do to help whistlekick in the mission to connect, educate and entertain? Well, it's the family page, whistlekick.com/family. Go there. You've got to type it in. We do that intentionally. If you're family, you're willing to take that small step. And it's all the stuff you can do to help us out as well as some stuff that we do not post anywhere else. Today's guest, Don Wilson, many of you know him as a celebrated professional kickboxer. Many of you know him as a consummate actor, appearing in so many movies. But I have a feeling that most of you know him as both because he has been prolific in and out of the ring on and off the screen. And I was absolutely honored to talk to him today. Hey, welcome.

Don Wilson:

I'm happy to be here. Finally, I apologize about we had the problem.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It happens.

Don Wilson:

I am getting back to my office and then getting hooked up last time.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's all good. It's all good. You don't,  you are nowhere close to the record for the longest time between when we started. And when we finally got somebody on the show. I couldn't remember who it was or somebody that it was five years.

Don Wilson:

You've been doing this for five years.

Jeremy Lesniak:

We're in our eighth year. 

Don Wilson:

Oh, congratulations. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah, thank you. We've been doing this for a while. It's been fun to meet a whole bunch of people, tons of your friends who've been on the show.

Don Wilson:

Hey, you know what, I haven't watched your show but

Jeremy Lesniak:

It is okay. 

Don Wilson:

Well, what is the official name, whistlekick or something or

Jeremy Lesniak:

Whistlekick is our company. We do a variety of different things - apparel, protective equipment, we do events, but martial arts radio is the show. So it's whistlekick martial arts radio.

Don Wilson:

Okay, well, I have a very good reason to be here.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You too. And correct me if I'm wrong. Does your daughter go to Middlebury? 

Don Wilson:

Yes, she does that in Vermont. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

So this year, Vermont knew how to make roads that went east-west. I could be at the college in 45 minutes. 

Don Wilson:

Really?

Jeremy Lesniak:

I'm in Montpelier. 

Don Wilson:

Oh, I bet it's cold where you are then

Jeremy Lesniak:

I was just out walking in a T-shirt.

Don Wilson:

Oh my god.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's six. It's like 61-60 What does it say? It's not telling me it's like 60 degrees out. It's great.

Don Wilson:

Oh my god. I am in Los Angeles and that's one of the reasons why everybody likes to live here is the Mediterranean climate. We never get the ice and the snow and all that. But we had to dry for over 10 years. It's really messed up. LA dry.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I am worried I keep seeing news articles about what they're going to do with Colorado and everything.

Don Wilson:

What I'm looking at right now I'm in my office, this is my home office put it right in the front of the house. So if I have anybody come over, they don't walk through, wander around through the house, the front doors right there. And I'm now looking out into the yard through your windows, and I have no grass. We purposely got a big yard for the kids and everything. And it's got an acre of yard, but an acre of dirt now.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I have an acre and it's still pretty green. I mean, there are a lot of leaves.

Don Wilson:

If that's the only problem you have in living in California, then we're lucky.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You're doing all right. 

Don Wilson:

Most of the things here are positive. So I actually have my next-door neighbors just leaving people are leaving, though, because I guess, of tax and financial reasons. It's expensive in LA, and I'm thinking it's property taxes or something. I'm not really sure what and why people are leaving, but

Jeremy Lesniak:

It’s the whole pile of living there versus elsewhere, Vermont.

Don Wilson:

Florida, and the people, my friends here. He's a director. He's directing me to coast. He moved to Florida. And he feels like, I guess he's getting his Directors Guild retirement or something which is not bad. And then but goes further as you're in Florida than LA. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh, Absolutely. I think everything goes further.

Don Wilson:

My boxer trainer with Texas. Charles like my agent passed away a year ago. Unfortunately for me, I had him since 1985. One agent and you know what? And I thought well, I don't need an agent. But the reality is, you do need you. Here's the thing the ad agent did a lot of work for his 10%. He's on top of all the new films coming out before something gets made like The Matrix, let's say he knows there are martial arts sci-fi b&w Studios, and but me, I'm really like, retro act. If people really want me, then they just call me they figure out, they find me somehow through people that know me. And they asked me to be in their films, and I do it. But that's no way to run your career. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

You just you gotta get there somehow, right? You can't start off.

Don Wilson:

I've been acting for 40 years later in 1982. I did a Chinese movie in New York, Chinatown. And, so it wasn't a career move. I just appeared as a bad guy. Because I was very popular in Hong Kong as a fighter. I had six fights there. So they thought putting me in a movie will be good and I was a bad guy. And I guess it was good for the movie. And then I just went back to my kickboxing then. And then I met Chuck Norris. And he said, Don when you retire, move out to LA, get an agent and be an actor. Chuck suggested to me, and he said, it's a great second career. And that's what I did. I moved out there in 85. And of course, they weren't looking for six-foot-tall Asians with Southern accents. But come from south Florida. But I accidentally called in for a movie called Bloodfest accidentally because they were looking for Caucasian Lead because they were trying to do something like buds for I don't wanna call it a rip-off. But that's technically what it was. But this was just Bloodsport, but with me instead of Van Damme,

Jeremy Lesniak:

They're really only like three plots in martial arts film, so it's kind of hard to not rip off something that's already been done. 

Don Wilson:

Well listen, I started 30 movies now. I've done versions of other people's movies.I did a version of Deathwish. I did a version of under siege, mine was called ground 00 Gosh, something just happened.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's okay. It was a little bit of a stutter in the network connection 

Don Wilson:

Someone’s calling me. I think that's what it is. You know what though? I don't know how you run your business but when I don't recognize the number I never pick it up.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Unless I'm expecting a call I don't answer because it's always a scam.

Don Wilson:

Well, There I get a lot of messages left by the trainee and trying to get me to buy a house or refinance all kinds of crazy stuff. I only if it pops up and I see the name then somebody that I know and I do business with or have friendship with and then I absolutely pick up. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sure. I want to go back to you being a bad guy in your first film because that's something that I've heard anecdotally a lot of actors are really afraid of. They're afraid of being typecast as a bad guy and how that plays out.

Don Wilson:

Maybe I should have been afraid of it but I knew such so little about the movie industry that I don't think I even I may have heard the word stereotype or typecasting. But I had never dealt with it. You know, I didn't get into kickboxing with the idea that oh, this is gonna lead to a film career.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right.

Don Wilson:

And so I didn't even think about it. Now listen, at this point in my life in my career. I've played the good guy over and over and over. And I mean, I'm not saying, if someone's got a bill, I won't be the good guy but what's enjoyable, is doing different things. That's why we saw Clint Eastwood. At one point in his career, he did a comedy Every Which Way But Loose, I think, or something, but with a booker, he added a rank attack in it. Then he loves her with Meryl Streep. I mean, he just got so tired of being the tough guy that shoots everybody and kills everybody. And I know that feeling, and luckily for me, my agent told me, I got paid more to do one scene with Billy Zane than I used to start movies. I did a scene where I was just a Japanese businessman, with no martial arts in it at all. And it was in science fiction. I don't know if it'll ever come out. It may already be out. I don't know. But when you just fly in, do one scene and fly out. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Easy 

Don Wilson:

I mean, never see the movie. I don't know. Michael Madsen told me that he'll do 20 movies in a year. He doesn't watch movies. And he said, John, he told me about my crease, you're leaving money on the table? If all you do is star in one genre. And I go, What are you talking about? Well, now I know. Now I know you can make as much if not more money, just being quoted with a called character actor. Going in, playing the bad guy

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sure.

Don Wilson:

Playing the best friend. What I just did in I guess was like, about three months ago, I got called to play an American Indian. Well, I better get it right now. It's called Native American. And because they don't like being called Indians, because that means they're from India. That's why the settlers called an Indians because they thought they were so dark. They thought they were Indian. They were from India. But you call them Native Americans. And I played a good guy though. So there was no backlash. There were no native Americans who wrote me on Facebook saying what are you doing taking a job away from me? A real Indian?

Jeremy Lesniak:

What was it like Billy Jack six?

Don Wilson:

No, no, no.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I really want somebody to reboot.

Don Wilson:

I don't know if it's politically correct. But some Mexican bad guys crossed the border, kidnapped some white women for sex trafficking, and go across the border a sheriff. This is set in the West, the Wild West Sheriff gets together a posse but they need, of course, their Indian Scout did tell him where the bad guys went. So I'm down there looking at the hooks and telling them why they just were gonna go here. And I don't even know how to ride a horse. They asked me in the beginning, how are you with horses and I said, Well, I'm not scared of them. Or I'll get on one I'll stop. I'll do whatever you want. But the shooting was so fast. They didn't have time, for me to learn how to ride. When we're doing like, the scene is written, we'd write up three guys, a sheriff and other guys meet. And we stop. I look at the ground. I point out where we're going. I tell him we got to go through. So you got to make that horse stop move of this way to do this. And my horse had to be in the lead. So here's what they do, though. This is in Arizona a couple of months ago. That horse only works with actors. That's what these horses there's a facility in Phoenix work. I guess everybody is goats. All the stuntmen came from there. And I've never made a Western. So I know they have these areas of the country where just Western towns Western outfits at all you could ever want or right there I got us flying your actors from LA put him in a hotel. And you're in next year in Texas or whatever.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh, what a ride.

Don Wilson:

So the horse, after you'd like to rehearsals, it knew what to do. And it just did it. I mean, my hands were on the rein, but I didn't think you go left to right. And it positioned itself. It stopped. It hit the mark, right weren't supposed to. I did my dialogue. I looked at the ground and I told him, You know what I was gonna say, and yeah, the horse was a better actor than me. Let's put it that way.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's a riot. So I had no idea, but it makes sense. Horses are smart. I've

Don Wilson:

They are trained. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I grew up riding horses. They like to have a plan. They like to know where they're going. I get it.

Don Wilson

Well, you know what his plan was don't rely on the actor for the screen direction. We rehearsed it a couple of times. The horse knew what to do and he just repeated it. I think it was she. Actually, she just repeated it but that saved me though because otherwise, I'm mad at myself because I guess I gave the impression that you put me on a horse and I'll just be riding because I have no fear of them or which I didn't. But I didn't realize that it's not like riding a bicycle. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That can be the next Pixar film, a Western perspective of the horse actors.

Don Wilson:

Well, you know what you, Jeremy, you probably won't see me in many westerns. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And that’s it? Want to know? 

Don Wilson:

Well, First of all, I'm Japanese. I mean, they probably should get a Native American. I'm sure there are some Native American actors. But you know what, though? I think the act director had us make another movie. And as I said before, I became what they call a recognizable name in show business. Not at the box office star, not Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt. But people recognize me, if they see a great portion of martial art action fans, of course, would you know, I'm 68 now. There's not a lot of Stallone reviving some of the older action stars. And he is in Expendables, which I'm trying to do something like that. But the truth is, action stars should be in their 20s to mid-30s. And that when I did films when I was in my mid-30s. And but 68, I mean.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's never too late.

Don Wilson:

There are roles like Liam Neeson and Taken 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah

Don Wilson:

Denzel Washington,, and the equalizer. Jack Reacher is a kind of the character of franchisable character that is not older though. Tom Cruise is still pretty young. I guess he's in as well. He's not a 20 something guy.

Jeremy Lesniak:

No, he's you know, what, the early to mid-50s? No.

Don Wilson:

I don't want to age him. It might be late 40s. But it's been around a while and I believe it was well written like what was the one the unforgiven? Clint Eastwood was old when he played that, but he played it. You know what, here's what I don't want to do. I don't want to do the plastic surgery and dye my hair and, and try to play the 25-year-old kickboxing up-and-comer. I'll pay the coach, the trainer, the mentor to the kickbox,, or whatever. Some roles fit me and my age. And but there's not a single kick or punch that I threw in the 90s that I couldn't throw today. And

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think that that's an important piece. You look at a movie like Balboa, right? It was 

Don Wilson:

I haven’t seen that.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It’s the six rocky film it's when he plays another rock, he plays with Milo Ventimiglia. And the whole premise is he is in his later age. I don't know how to quantify how old he is they might be. And he has to train and fight differently. 

Don Wilson:

Of course

Jeremy Lesniak:

He’s gonna go to this exhibition match. 

Don Wilson:

And that's turning a negative into a positive. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I think there's something to that, I've seen you on the mats, I've had the opportunity to be on the mats quite a bit with Bill Wallace. And you know, seen several folks, your contemporaries, and as you said, there's nothing that you can't still do. Well, and I think calling it.

Don Wilson:

I'm not the fighter I was, but I'm saying for movies, because look, calories, movies, anybody can I tell people I take no self-pride for my movies, as a fight scene, because you rehearse, you rehearse, and it will be good. You just cut and your edited out and you get a different view. And those things are not like, I'm proud that I did these fights. Now. I'm proud that I was a light heavyweight champion for 10 years, I held the title for 10 years WK. And  I didn't go out. Loser. I came out of retirement last time when three more fights. And then I retired for the last time in 2002. So I fought for 28 years. And that's a long career for a career.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's inspiring. I hope you don't underestimate the inspiration of movies, to see someone you know why was Clint Eastwood so popular so late. Because there are a lot of guys who aren't 20 or 30 looking and saying, Okay, where's our representation? Oh here's a guy who's been doing it. And you can aspire to be him

Don Wilson:

He turned into a positive. He made his character, we couldn't see the bad guys. Do you remember that? And he has a gun. I don't know if you saw the end forgive him, but he hands it to the black actor. As you know who I'm talking about. But anyway, he couldn't take the shot because he couldn't see the guy well enough. And so instead of being, oh they get a movie about astronauts where they got these old astronauts together. You remember that one James Garner, I think and Donald Sutherland knows it. But anyway, you got to take the negative things of aging and make it part of the script. Literally, like, you know, my character might not be as fast as he was, or you may not be as strong. But, then he uses his internal strength to overcome the bad guys in some way, shape, or form. I think that's the way you work with an older actors in an action film, are you let the positive. Well, I've got a script right now dealing with that. It's called the well it was originally called Blood rate, but they changed the name to The Dependables. Obviously, you know, why? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I have no idea like this.

Don Wilson:

It's like this blood sport. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah
Don Wilson:

Blood fists. Now, you don't have to wonder what kind of movie mine's gonna be. And you don't have to worry about the Expendables. Because of what it is, all the B movie guys have agreed to do the movie. We'll show if it's successful, we can do like its finals and it will have a franchise 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Can you share names?

Don Wilson:

Blanks, Michael Judah, Cynthia Rothrock. Richard Norton, Olivia Gruner. They've all said we are we're on board when you get ready. And I’ll tell you the gist of it. It's we older actors are trained. We're the instructors at the SWAT unit for LAPD Police Department. We're training a couple of a group of young filmmakers to be SWAT unit members. And we go to the station, we're watching films and things, and all of a sudden, there's a terrorist attack downtown LA, and the real SWAT unit gets called. And they rushed down to LA to Tantalus. Tariffs and tech comm bombs go off in downtown LA. And what happens is, it's a cover for a bank robber. Hostages take lives at risk, like two. I think two hostages have been killed already, whatever, but it comes in. So this is a life-or-death thing. And they can't pull the people off of the terrorist attack. So the old instructors are there with young cadets. We order the younger, that's not to come to try to help us but they want to help us, of course. 

And as old guys, we load up with our equipment, get a van and we go to stop these bank robbers before they kill all the hostages or whatever. And what ends up happening is, of course, the young guys come to help us, and they show up breaking their orders. And we chased the bad guys out of the building. And they run into an abandoned building, ready for a big shootout with us and the buildings full of vampires. And now it becomes humans versus vampires. So the bank robbers and the cops join forces to fight the vampires. And yeah, I don't want to give away the whole story. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That's quite a plot twist. 

Don Wilson:

Well, this is the idea of it. I was taught by Roger Corman, we did 12 movies together. You know, he's the most prolific producer in history, with 300 movies, and I did 12. And so Abdeen more than anybody else. I think David Carradine was second to eight movies. But anyway, he taught me how to take an idea that is been successful for the studios, and then do a version of that and get a piece of that audience. Because you will never make a movie that loses money because it's already proven that the concept is financially and commercially successful. And so this one is based on a movie called Dusk to Dawn. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Don Wilson:

Tarantino wrote the script. He's in the movies. Well, I don't know if you ever saw it. But it isn't a normal movie about these criminals' trucks trying to get across the border and go into Mexico. And they stop at a bar. And at that bar, at midnight, a bunch of the people turn into vampires and kill all the humans.

Jeremy Lesniak:

The classic.

Don Wilson:

Right, Well, so this is the structure of this is similar. When you start the movie, there's no hint whatsoever, it's going to be a horror film. In the end, it's a typical comp action thing with all these Boothby movie guys. I think it's gonna excite everybody because everybody's on board, you know, all the big guys you ever saw in 80s

Jeremy Lesniak:

Sounds like a lot of films.

Don Wilson:

I'll be in it, but they'll be in it as age appropriate as instructors at the police academy and teaching these young people that want to be Swat. They aspire to be what we were the real SWAT unit of LAPD. And it's a kind of Roger Corman concept. It's not going to get nominated for any Oscars. But it's going to be highly commercial because I believe they're nostalgic look, the marshal the Karate Kid. They did the Cobra Kai. They got all the old fans watching it because I watched the first episode which was great. I don't watch TV though, so I can't say. I kept following it but I know it was successful. One time it was the number-one show on Netflix. And that's an old concept, right? And they got that guy ruff Marciana. I think they've got Martin Cogan, that thing they dubbed Mark Koba.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Everybody.

Don Wilson:

Well they got them all back then. If Pat Marita was alive heated in it. He was alive so on.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely.

Don Wilson:

I think this nostalgia has a value in that you can't do the exact same thing you did in the past but you can take the sense of the concepts of it like our characters will all be heroic. In fact, in some of the B movie guys I told him though, there are only so many jobs, and the cops give you the bad guys have to be also bad a**. So a couple of several of the B movie stars will be the bad guys and they will not be in the sequels. Just like [0:26:04-0:26:05], I think was the bad guy and one of the Expendables, right? I think he gets killed off. I'm not sure. I don't remember if he died. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It’s been a few years, my memory from movies isn’t great. 

Don Wilson:

Their formula is not to expose the bad guys as action stars, and then use them over and over.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What's next with this concept? Like when might we see

Don Wilson:

Right now? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay, cool

Don Wilson:

Literally, last weekend in Florida. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Oh awesome. 

Don Wilson:

Because the money is coming from a group of investors that are actually in their music people. And they're in, their ideas this dauntless movies get and they do I get worldwide distribution. Every country, [0:26:51-0:26:52],I mean, weird countries, they all take my movies. And if these music producers put their client's music in the movie, their clients, music will be heard all over the world to do with the music, but with my movies, instantaneously, we just have to make sure it's appropriate for the scene, you can't walk into like a rap club. And they're playing country western. So it's gonna be but I never realized that it's an attorney. And a guy who he's got like, maybe eight Grammy nominations or something. I don't know how many he's won but he got and they came up with the idea. I wish I could say the financing of films so that they've raised some money. And that's how we're gonna make them. That's the movie. I told them. That's the movie we should do. First is the dependables because 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It sounds fun.

Don Wilson:

In my opinion, it's for sure gonna be a moneymaker because of all the buyers from all over the world. I'm bigger in other countries than I am an American by far.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I've heard that. And I want to take that opportunity to go back. You talked about it. You said six fights in Hong Kong. 

Don Wilson:

Yeah.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You manage to establish a fight career globally in a way that I'm not aware of people outside of, we've got some limited examples in MMA today. We've had some professional boxers over the years. But for most people when we talk about fights and titles, it's North American-centric, how did you become global?

Don Wilson:

The fighter's hometown, he's the main event. And he's from Miami, the fights are gonna be in Miami. Vegas is the only place where actual fighters will uproot themselves and go and live there. Because that's where their big fights on Vegas. Here's what happened to me and this kind of many champions probably had the same thing. When I first won the title., other fighters around the world, have promoters promoting them, and let's say Amsterdam and Berlin. I fought Berlin, the German champion in Berlin, the British champion in London, and the Italian champion in Rome. That's how I got my reputation, that Thai champion in my weight division anyway, in Bangkok, I mean, I beat them in their hometowns, because I had to knock them out. I did not. First of all, they were great fighters. Nobody put me up. Once you win the World title, you don't fight the easy guys anymore. 

The guys that are like 22 and five or some no, you fight the undefeated fighters, or the number one contenders and other champions. I beat I think it's, the number was 12 Other World Champions like Marie Smith. I beat Dennis Alexio, the heavyweight champion, I beat him. [0:30:00-0:30:01] world champion, James wearing IBF boxing champion and kickboxing gym, I beat many other champions, as well as number one contenders, as well as top 10 fighters. And I'm one of the only ones that were the First Kung Fu star to win a World Title in Boxing. That's one of my claims to fame. But also, I lasted longer than any other pro-fighter, I started in 74. And my last fight was in 2002. That's 28 years. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It's been a long time. 

Don Wilson:

Well, for a sport where you elbow each other in the face. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

For sure

Don Wilson:

It’s all striking. Look, I would have loved that done MMA, because if the guy gets you in an armbar, so you just tap out, and the no injuries. But my sport, there's no we call that quitting. You're supposed to struggle, struggling making snap your elbow. In kickboxing, you fight to your unconscious, there's no tapping out or that's not quitting. We call that quitting when things are going south of the border for you in the fight. You just go. You know what, I'll fight you next month. I'm done tonight. I'm going home. We don't do that. We're expected to fight until we're unconscious, then they forgive us. But listen, if you get kicked in the leg, I fought broken ribs, broken jaw, broken noses, broken hands. I had two broken hands and one fight. But if I just stop and just quit and walked out of the ring, they'd be booing me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What's your mindset in a fight with two broken hands? You've got to be thinking about quitting.

Don Wilson:

For my opponent. It's not good, because my mindset is, to listen. It's not the norm. Because I was like a wounded animal. Now they tell you if an animal's wounded, right, it crawls into a hole. And it's got a bad leg or something. Don't stick your hand in there because it will and a wounded animal will fight harder. And that's the way,  I was if I sustained an injury in the ring. When I would, my instinct is to give back more punishment to my opponent. In other words, that's like throwing fuel into a fire. For me, and I think my whole career was 28 years, and, believe me, I had fear in my heart when I got into the ring in the beginning. First of all, we thought that if you got kicked in the head, you might die. So it's so scary. The first folk we call, it full contact karate. We didn't even call it kickboxing is so new in America, it's 1974. And they had the first fights and PK put on was optic TV. And my brother saw that and he wanted to promote the first fights on the East Coast, which was in Orlando, Florida. And he asked me if I'd do it. I said, Yeah, but we thought, first of all, we fought on a concrete floor. So now think about it. If you get knocked out, you're knocked out when you're now my head is six feet in the air. That means if I fall down, I'm gonna bounce on that concrete with my head.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Right

Don Wilson:

Six feet. Now, you got a watermelon six feet, what's going to happen when it hits the concrete?

Jeremy Lesniak:

It will smash.

Don Wilson:

Well, that's what wouldn't happen to us. Thank God. We were so inexperienced, nobody knocked anybody out. Because after that, they fought over that. And then after the mats, we got we figured out, you don't have to reinvent the wheel. Boxing already had a ring with an elevated platform so people could see it better, right? Because we can fight on a mat. You can bet on it. You get a few rows back, you can't see anything. So anyway, we are in the professional martial arts arena. Pro-kick boxers were the first professional fighters in martial arts because they added grappling and now we have MMA, so used to kickboxing and added grappling and lifted there have been many kickboxing champions who became UFC champions so much, I mean, not kickboxing, strikers, strikers like Machina and Marie Smith won. The UFC strikers can translate use add some grappling and then.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Absolutely.

Don Wilson:

They were on campus, but you haven't seen a UFC champion get in a kickboxing ring and win the World Kickboxing title. It is not translatable because when you take away all their grappling, then Randy's target knocked out his last fight by a jump front kick. And I've been in kickboxing for my whole since I was 18 years old. I'm 68 now, it's 50 years. I've never seen a white-belt front kick in the face and knocked out. So that shows you in the end, anyway Randy's a great fighter. I'm gonna say yeah, I love the guy. I consider him a friend. But his defense was so low, he was both shoulders were square and he was crouching down.

He's looking at Machina and Machian just looks at that just jumped right kick, and knocks him right out. Jump right kick. So you can reach a high level of MMA and still be vulnerable to strikes.It's changing though, we're talking about how many years ago Machina knocked out Randy, and in those years.

Jeremy Lesniak:

There’s only a few 

Don Wilson:

A lot of strikers got success in the UFC a lot of them. There it's not like Royce Gracie. I never saw through a left hook or overhand right. I mean, the guys never his punches are just what we call arm punches. He just extended them but they're really not real train boxing stop punches and certainly, no combinations Royce never didn't know how to throw up. God loves hooks. He could not mix punches up. And that's the love and he was dominating MMA. So that sport has gone from that to guys like, who's Silva Silva? He's got to fight Logan Paul, I believe Silva.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It was this past weekend, Andersons Silva.

Don Wilson:

The essence of what happened.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Paul by decision. 

Don Wilson:

By a decision? Oh, okay. Well, Anderson Silva is [0:36:17-0:36:18]. And Paul has been in my gym. Logan, Paul, and Jake. Well, I think it was Logan Paul who was in the gym. Those guys are big, strong, Husky guys. They are on the level of beginning pros. They're not huge. They weren't YouTubers. But every pro was something else before he was a pro boxer, right? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

They've been putting in the time for sure. 

Don Wilson:

Right, They've got good guys around him too. And you know what? They're not making nickels and dimes when they come up to the gym, six cars lineup, and it's a coronation. It's a roll. It's a Jag. It's a Ferrari. And, that's how their entourage pulls into the driveway of the boxing gym where I trained and it will enhance and they're making money. I believe that he grossed 65 million when he fought Ben Askren. I believe, it was a former UFC fighter wrestler who knocked him out first round. I think Logan Paul, the event grossed 65 million.

Jeremy Lesniak:

They're pulling in a lot of money and they're, you know, love them or hate them love the business side of it or not. 

Don Wilson:

It offers you to participate. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

There. It's pulling people into a score as spectators that would not otherwise watch it. People need they need a story. They need to have an emotional connection to somebody in the ring. 

Don Wilson:

This is a version of Championship Wrestling, but it's real. Yes. It's true. I really believe they are trying to win their opponents. I don't you know, there have been recently a few boxing matches were some boxing people in the gym I trained. I don't train in martial art gym. I trained in a boxing gym. And they felt they were like six fights. Now, I'm gonna tell you about the greatest fighter on the biggest fan of his. Right now, I guarantee this is a fixed fight. Fix fights do happen. It's a business, a money-making business. There's a lot of money. Muhammad Ali was a world champion. He decides he's gonna fight Leon Spinks. Leon Spinks has a pro-fights when he fights Muhammad Ali. Ali fights them. I think it was Joe's 15 rounds. He goes 15 rounds. He doesn't have a fat lip, doesn't have a broken No, doesn't he? But he loses a decision. He got paid 5 million. The rematch and the rematch. He was guaranteed another five. So he turned that fight. And he knew that's the one guy, he knew he could be how can a guy with eight pro fights beat Muhammad Ali? And if you do, you got to really hurt like you're.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Lucky knockout? 

Don Wilson:

No, we went the distance he lost. He lost a decision.

Jeremy Lesniak:

That’s the point, Anybody can get get a lucky shot. One in a million.

Don Wilson:

That can happen. But that's not in this case. I believe. Ali looked at his business's decision. He said You know what, who is that I could fight he's got a name and people would pay to see it. And I can lose, and then get my title back one more time. And Leon Spinks got the phone call from, hey, you're gonna fight for the world title Muhammad Ali, on his ninth pro-fight. I mean, you because Ali when you're a champion like me when I was I hate crime. Let's get a shot at me and the title right? I pick up. It's nothing. I will say this is the number one contender, you got to fight them every year because you just get pushed by the association, WKA. They're pushing me because they know what, when I defend it against an undefeated fighter, [0:39:48-0:39:48].He sold that fight, the package to NBC Sports World. So that's a lot bigger than ESPN, especially back then. In 1984, when we did ESPN, I thought the first fight was on the [0:39:59 -0:40:00].

Jeremy Lesniak:

Did you really?

Don Wilson:

Hurt? Fight? In 1979, I was. And then the day that so much, they had a fight on every week in ESPN. But anyway, I'm gonna say that forced me but they didn't. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Encourage?

Don Wilson:

They told me I had to defend it. They'll strip you of your title. If you run from, I don't think in one year, but I listen, I didn't want to run from anybody. So I fought Alexio, I had the flu. Wait, My phone fell.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It’s okay.

Don Wilson:

We’re back on.

Jeremy Lesniak:

We are on. 

Don Wilson:

I was kind of like, pressured into fighting Dennis Alexio when I had the flu, and I'd beat him. And then he was off to rematch with me. He turned it down. He gained weight and became a heavyweight. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why don't you? 

Don Wilson:

Everybody UFC. I beat him in 12 rounds. We fought 12 rounds, and I beat him with the flu.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Do you think that's why this recognition that I can't beat this guy when he's got the flu? I'm definitely not going to beat him if he is.

Don Wilson:

Right, That's what I believe because what I did was not physically beat him up. Because you don't have to do that. It's a sport. You just have to score more strikes on his target areas, the body, and the head and I kicked the legs. He couldn't walk after the fight. They had to carry him around. I kicked his legs but the rules in the fight were as well. You have your eight kicks every round. That's what the rule was in 1984. Well, when you kick his leg, he couldn't get his kicks. In two rounds, he got like four kicks in one of them. And then I guess he missed two. So he lost the fight, point-wise, just from not throwing enough kicks. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And that was your strategy going in. 

Don Wilson:

It was my strategy. I crowded him after I got my kicks in. And then I kicked him in the lead leg and I damaged it. So he couldn't really use his left leg basically. And I'm not saying anything derogatory about Dennis. But no, I tell people, I beat him with my IQ. I just outshot him in the fight. The wizard.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Isn't that case? In the case of the best fighters, don't people often talk about the best fighters as being very intelligent?

Don Wilson:

Yeah, he was. Well, Dennis was one of the better fighters though. So he was not stupid. He had a game plan like Tyson. Tyson, the bell rings every round, you got to try to knock you out. And guess what? Most guys he knocks out. Let's do the same way, the bell rings. He goes forward and tries to knock you out. He's got club grounds to do it. That's his game plan. Nine times out of 10. He does not knock people out. And that wasn't mine. If plan A doesn't work. I go to plan B. If Plan B doesn't work. I go to plan C. I would adapt and they say Mayweather does that. That Mayweather has certain things, he does consistently but he will crowd guys, avoid them, and tie them up. He will use all the tools he has strategically to win fights over and over and over. And he's been able to beat a lot of people from Pacquiao to Oscar De La Hoya to all the guys he was waiting for, you don't duck the big names because that's where you make all your money, right? I didn't duck them in my way division. I follow all the top guys.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What made you come out of retirement?

Don Wilson:

The money. And a lot of people said, John, that's you fighting for the wrong reason. I said no. That's the only reason what they did was this. They offered me and they called up. Well, first of all, they said something that was from revolution productions. Now, I've been doing movies for years. So I thought was a movie company. So I sent that information. They said we would like to discuss a business opportunity for you. So that didn't sound like a fight to me. So I sent it to my agent. And my agent calls up he says, Don, this is not a movie. I said, What is it? He said it was a fight. They want you to fight. I go fight. I haven't been in the ring in 10 years. And he goes, Well, they want you to fight a heavyweight. And it's the signing bonus. They call it 150,000 which means you get it when you sign the contract. And then they offer are 12% of the pay-per-view. Well, I had the same attorney that George Foreman and so he knows pay-per-view. Now. Henry Holmes's name, I got him to Chuck Norris. So Henry looks at the [0:44:33 -0:44:34} for the first-time fight on paper. This is a great contract. He says millions of dollars. And I said well, I'm in and at that time. I really didn't know Dick Kimber that well. I didn't know much about him. Because you know, he's a heavyweight he was 20 something like that. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And what were you fighting at prior to this?

Don Wilson:

175 is my way to go. So what I do is this and this is a trick I use when I came out of retirement and I can expose it now because I'm not using it anymore. I said, Listen, I'm 175, you're 220. Let's meet in the middle. Let's meet at 195 cruiserweights. And that sounds relatively fair, right? I'll come up 20 pounds. You come down 20 pounds. Well, it's not fair because I get to eat all I want and lift weights. And for the first time in their lives, heavyweights don't die it, he's starving himself, and basically all three of the guys I bought lost their weight with the rubber suit on the D and dehydrated themselves. I don't know if you've ever done it, but I've done it. You drop up to 50% of your skill up. You're tired faster, and your arms are. Your body's going to heat up in the middle of the fight because even though you drink the water right after weigh-ins, you got it. This is like 24 hours before the fight. It's absorbent, right? You are substantial. When I came out of retirement, yes, I was 48 years old by 12 rounds. But I was beaten up, full of water,  full of protein. And I'm fighting young guys 25 years old., Dewey Cooper is 25 years old. I thought at the MGM solid muscle. He was weak as a baby. He is weak as me. So I can't brag about oh, I won three. Well, there's a fight in and out of the ring, right? I won by not cheating, getting them to agree to meet in the middle was necessary if Dick Kimber, I knocked him out three rounds, but I believe at him to 15 to 20, solid, eaten lifting weights, it wouldn't have been the same kind of fight for me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It would have been a heck of a lot more difficult. But I love that there are some pretty well-established martial arts principles in what you're saying. Get them to fight your fight if possible. 

Don Wilson:

Correct, right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Prepare right, fight smart. I mean, we've got these threads coming through Where did you ever take a fight? You didn't think you could win?

Don Wilson:

No. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Was it that out of confidence?

Don Wilson:

Either when I had no reason to feel confident, I always felt now listening, thinking you're gonna win every fight isn't you, whatever. If I got five or four of those losses, though, in my mind, I am one of those things that like hometown decisions if you don't knock the guy out, I learned that early on. He's gonna make a decision. You know, I thought the British champion in England or London, German Champion Berlin, the Italian champion in Rome, you think I'm gonna get the decision? If it's if it's anywhere close. There's no way that it's the promoter. And they want me there just to build a local guy. That's why I'm getting the money. But when the guys I said, when the guys laying on the floor County, and he's knocked out. I mean, there's no decision. There's no cheating.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I've heard it said there's no politics other than a knockout. Correct?

Don Wilson:

Correct. And then, but it's a lot of pressure to have me doing the bell ring because the guy is good, and they are good effort. And Matt was a great fighter. And I ended up in a 10 round fight, I ended up knocking him out in the ninth round. So that's pretty close, right. And I didn't knock him out. A three knockdown rule was in effect. And I hit him in the body, which he was not expecting because I kept all my punches to the head tapping into by little bit, but I didn't catch it. And then in the night round, I went down to his body. I dropped him three times, all body shots in the same round, and I wanted a decision. Now I'm in Berlin, the 10,000 German scream and Alison dead silence. He's on the floor. And then what was odd was this night at night, I used some cheering for me. And I'm thinking well, who the heck are these Germans? So when I came out of the ring, it was before the fall of the Berlin Wall. And they were soldiers. We have American soldiers were stationed in Berlin and they were gone this was you won me a lot of money because the German fans of this German fighter all bet the American soldiers that I was gonna get my rear end and the American soldiers they didn't know me but they they bet on American I came out there wearing red, white and blue. And so when I knocked them out, those guys collected their money. Their German Pro will get the German guys to say the guy's on the floor. It says he came to argue about the decision. And anyway, it was a good feeling for me to get a pat on the back from our troops because they were winning money, because it was flipped the other way. Like, oh, man, he's lost me a month worth, hey.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You talked about why you took your first fight, you know, to help your brother promote.

Don Wilson:

Yeah but I want to experience real fighting too.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is that why you kept going? Those kinds of early days?

Don Wilson:

Look, yes, my brother wanted a motive. But we didn't know if you can have a career like that. I was 18 years old. I was in college, I was an engineering major. And I lost first sight. I broke my hand. It cost me more than I got paid. I got $100 from the fight, by the way, but the emergency room was more expensive to reset my hand. And so I lost money, lost the fight, got injured, and loved it. It was so exciting. People said, well, what's the difference? I said, Well, we can do point fighting. Everybody had a point fighting, like going back to the 60s Chuck Norris days. But that's like touch football compared to the NFL. It's the feeling you get when you're a pro fighter, and you're actually knocking guys out and you're dangerous being aka the thrill. The excitement is lightyears beyond, like playing flag football with your friends. And that's what it is, diversity, the Super Bowl, and flag football with your friends. The point fighting was good. It does improve you to a certain degree. But it's not the same. It's not the same kind of dedication and enjoyment that you get from the sport that you get when you really are knocking each other out. And I'd get I'm sure these MMA guys liked the submission because I wrestled in college by the way. Of all the sports I did that was the one I took to the fastest was wrestling. I was an MVP in my high school football team, and the MVP in my high school basketball team. I ran track through the discus. shotput ran a high hurdles, sprint, Nedley. I was not overlapping. And I did in college. What would the athletic director say? It's impossible. He said, Son, I said what sports you have. We said well, we got basketball. But the team's already kicked. I said well, because I had no money to go to college. So what other sport he said we'll get wrestling which he wrestled. I said no, but I'll try out. He goes, son, nobody starts a sport at the collegiate level, like the first day you touch a basketball. You're going for the basketball team. You want to try out college basketball. Well, I never wrestled, but the thing is this, I was an athlete. And my incentive to get that scholarship was my college degree. I was not going to be an engineer. My whole goal was to become an engineer. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And how long? How long have you been doing kung fu at that point?

Don Wilson:

Two years. So I know kung fu is not collegiate wrestling. It's a different sport. It's, it's leverage. It's you gotta be strong. And man, we started with each other, we were dehydrated. That's how I learned to lose weight the right way because I was doing it the wrong way in the beginning, I used to take x lakhs. And what happened was, I stopped because of this. I was sitting in a movie theater, and also my back started hurting. And I'm 18 years old. My back was hurting so bad. I had to leave the movie here. Go to a doctor. Now when you're 18 you go to a doctor. You got to really be bad off because we're invulnerable at that age. But I went to a doctor because my back hurts so bad. And he couldn't figure out what it was. He couldn't and they didn't tell me about your life. Tell me what you're doing. And I told him I was taking this x slice and he was well that said he is not you're back at your kidneys. He said everything's gone through them. And you're destroying your kidneys literally. And luckily, I was 18 years old and everything to my knowledge. I rebuilt everything. Everything's normal for me, but yeah, I damaged myself by doing everything wrong, to lose weight to lose weight in college. That's why I believe as a fighter, I fought for different weight divisions to win world titles and four different weight divisions. middleweight light heavyweight, super light, heavyweight cruiserweight?

Jeremy Lesniak:

And what's the what's the bounds on that for people who aren't quite

Don Wilson:

Generally, I guess you can say? Cast 15 pounds difference, each one.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Okay, so the middleweight is

Don Wilson:

Quite heavyweight. I believe it was, by the way, invented during the Dennis Alexio fight. Because it was the day before the fight. He couldn't make his way. So the promoter didn't want to cancel the NBC Sports World contract and all that money. And the promoter happened to be the association president, which is illegal boxing. If you're the president, he says you can't be a promoter. But now, Dana White. And now we just got thrown out the door. So the actual association president invented a new weight division called superlight heavyweight. And he said, you Dennis are going to fight for that title. And so he said, this is really good for you, Don, and I go, why is it good for me? I'm 173. He's 8182. And he said because if you lose, you still got your light heavyweight title. And if you win, you get another world title. That's how it matters. So I looked at him, I said, Look, I don't want any other titles. I'm prepared to be sick, fight and defend my 175. But now I gotta fight at cruiserweight. That's basically what Alexia was. So what ended up happening is Alexia realized he's no 175 pounder, and he just gained weight and became a heavyweight champion. That's what he had. He just started putting on weight. And because it's a lot easier to put it on, then take it off, especially as we all get older, right?

Jeremy Lesniak:

I haven't figured out how to get younger. 

Don Wilson:

Yeah, it becomes more difficult. And so that's what happened with the Dennis Alexio fight in which I never say anything bad about my opponents because that isn't that isn't aggrandizing me. They weren't good. Wearing them was good. Murray Smith. The Bronco Signatech first came when these guys were dangerous and good. And I feel beat up. So if I call them bums I didn't do much right.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Your time in the ring speaks for itself.

Don Wilson:

Why did I miss you the mentality of guys who put down their opponents? Say that they're wimps and they can't, they can't fight, they can't punch, they can't get what is it?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is it part of what we were talking about before creating a story? Is it part of

Don Wilson:

I can't believe that Conor McGregor really believed Habi was not a great fighter? Just watch the guy. He's great. And by the way, he beat the Khabib record right. Now, if he beats you all the bad, nothing you said about it makes you look bad, right? I mean, and he's so bad, and he's such a wimp. He's such a quitter. Why even fight them, right? It's really, I never did that. And Benny Akitas. I talked to you and I said, Benny, you know how the fighters badmouth each other today. I wouldn't feel comfortable. I don't have anything personal against anybody I ever fought. And Benny said the same thing to me. He said, Well, you know, Don, they didn't make more money than we did. Because they got on that championship roster. He said, But said, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing it either.

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I think it's reflective of that, at the time that you came in. And we've had folks on the show who Bill, and others, reverse traditional martial art, you were martial artists. And first and foremost, and that attitude, whether you were on TV or at a competition or

Don Wilson:

Each other, we don't fit on each other. We do bow to our opponent, you show him respect. You respect his instructor and his style and it was a different time. And I know that it's promotional and that more people gotta watch it. Like if you hear that I'm fighting Don down. More people will watch it if they hear us badmouth each other. This just, if I say what I really believe, well, if I say what I really believe he's gonna consider it bad now because he's never had a pro fight as far as I know. He is crazy about a world champion, but he isn't. In an interview, he said he couldn't remember the association that gave him his world title hacking.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Because every fighter I've ever talked to knows details of every round of every fight.

Don Wilson:

Yeah, everybody knows me. Your opponents. Frank justice going around. He's saying that he wants to fight me, but them. And, first of all, frankly, he says he's 330, but he can't give you one name of one opponent because it's a secret. He's sworn to secrecy. Yet he made a movie about it. He can make a movie about it. But I can't tell you the names of his opponents. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

The way you mentioned the thing about Van Damme is, is that something that might happen?

Don Wilson:

Oh, absolutely. He's already our van Damme. A guy that he works out with can say his guarantee to fight me was $3 million. If he gets $3 million, who signed the contract, and he will negotiate a percentage of the paper that's up to him and his attorneys and his representation. But he will agree he must remain up front. And it could happen. Because let me tell you, we will sell worldwide you don't the sky getting those guys. They don't sell in Germany and Italy, but all over the world. That means VanDamme would if I'm saying the Pay Per View operators in those countries would just buy the rights from whoever has theirs in America 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Would have a chance if it was promoted right to being the best just pay-per-view of all time.

Don Wilson:

Me and Van Damme fighting. They're doing eight rounds though. Why not? 12 That's what I was trying to claim. He's a World Champion and World champion by 12.I haven't heard him say it in a long time, but he did set it in the 80s. And it was even on one of the BloodSport posters, undefeated middleweight champion, and I tell people, he is undefeated. When you've never had one pro fight, you got no losses.

Jeremy Lesniak:

How would you prepare for something like that? 

Don Wilson:

Same way that I always do. Same thing. Tomorrow. First cardio, running six miles, nine miles a day. Jumping rope, I jump rope for an hour straight. I get my cardio. Because I don't have to learn anything. And what? Watch him fight, he's got no fights to watch. And I don't believe that stuff anyway, because you know what? If you think you're worried about the guy's right hand, you see now he's knocked out six guys in the right hand. He might. While you're for that right hand, he might throw the left hook and knock you right out. So I don't put a lot of stock in the pre-incept fence. If the guy throws a beer at you in a nightclub? How much time do you know about his fighting style? Nothing. So as martial artists, we have to be able to go from zero to 100 miles an hour. And I just took that with me into the kickboxing ring. I watched him a little bit. But for me, the actual experience of being in the ring with them checking how fast they are is the reflexes. That means I can analyze the fighter faster that way. In studying them and spending 100 hours watching tapes in the first couple of minutes of the fight, I'll know everything I need to know. And because we have a feeling out process, most experienced fighters know you guys are kind of your kids. They say oh, they show starters. I know we're going 100% In the first round, but I'm doing more watching than I am striking. And I tell people I throw up a smokescreen and go, we need smoke. I said I'll throw stuff the guys think I'll try to hit him. And that is not what I'm trying to do. I will do that for three or four rounds. I call it rocking the baby's sleep. Because by the fifth round, the guy hasn't been stung. I haven't hit him with a solid body shot. I haven't stung. He gets a feeling of like he's safe in the ring. And that's how I got guys. I got 48 knockouts. Most fighters with 48 knockouts didn't say oh, he's a knockout fighter Marciano. I think he had 49. But people call me a technician. Because during the fighting, I don't get punched in the face. I mean, I had 12 Round fights with the leather of my opponent's glove, never touching the skin of my face. So I don't take punches to give them. I come from the traditional point of fighting where you don't let a guy touch you. And when guys crowd me, I close the gap. I go closer to them. Because I tell people if you step back like it's Brocklin 60 Everybody ran from because he knocked out 20 straight guys. If you go away, he's used to going forward, he could still put as much if not more power in his punch. But I would start to Step back, he would step forward. Then I moved and I moved forward. And when it was like a 123 I stepped back, he came for Chase, and then I came forward on that third move. He's thrown off. All of a sudden he's ready for that Big right hand and my head is here on his chest. And now for a split second. He's disoriented and then that's whether I was landing punches on him or not. He was an undefeated European champion and I knocked him out in the seventh round. It took six rounds to rock that baby asleep. When he felt comfortable, he charged me and put me up against the ropes through three right hands. I threw a right hook ruptured his eardrum broke his jaw when he hit the ground he broke his nose with one punch

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is there anybody that you wanted to fight but just didn't happen? 

Don Wilson:

Me? Man. And can you recognize names?  I had a fight with Rob Kimmons. Rob Calm was a great fighter. We should have fought when we were in around the same weight division. They offered me a fight with him. But it was less money than I was getting to fight easy guys in America. So I said no, the money's not right. If the money had been right, I would have gone. I thought it wouldn't have mattered because like I said, my ultimate goal as a martial artist was to improve myself as a martial artist. So fighting the best guys is how you improve. Now secondarily, I want to make as much money as I can. So that's the reason why fight with me Rock Calm and I will say this Ernesto host I didn't fight him. He's one of the guys. He was called Mr. Perfect and John came on champions. Ernesto who spoke to Brock was sick and got knocked out twice. So I feel as much pressure against the nurse Ernesto because I said I knocked out the guy that knocked him out. And I said that what She was in England, we were in England together, making appearances. And he goes, Why don't you back out of the fight with me? I said, What fight with you? So I never agreed to fight you. And he goes by. Then the posters printed and everything as I said, Well, okay, somebody might have printed some posters, but I've never had a fight with you back and I said, Why would I back out with you and I knocked the guy out that knocked you out twice. And I sent it right through the big crowd. And he had nothing to say.

There's not much he can say, right? He got back twice my [1:05:30-1:05:32] courage to come to Florida and fight me and my hometown Orlando. And I knocked him out. Now if I didn't just want to close the decision against Bronco, there's been a question as day people would be saying that maybe Don didn't row and maybe he did. And because of the local judging and all that kind of crap. But when the guy is like I said, when the guy is most not nicer. I Scott flopping like a fish on the floor. There's no argument. There's no art and there wasn't for Graco?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Who is your favorite fighter to watch? 

Don Wilson:

Johnny Terrio? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Why? 

Don Wilson:

Defense. Everybody talks about his offense. And he has probably, I don't know, you could check this Google. Maybe he probably has the best knockout record in the history of kickboxing joints here. But that's not the part of it that his defense was great. I mean, he never and he's like, you're watching lectures or Well, I and Alexis has worked my quarter before I knew him in my from Miami, where you live in Miami. But yeah, Jai Terrio had a great defense that did take a lot of punishment and knocked a lot of guys out. And under his rules, the rules that he thought were the full context of what he was probably the best. Now I thought him and they call it a draw to everyone draw a filter outpointed him but under that style of fighting, especially since my fight just before that was a Thai kickboxing match and Hong Kong two months before. 

I did something he didn't do. I went and bought Muay Thai, Japanese kickboxing, and full context, which is the western style. He was better to me than I believe, even though he called it a draw, even though I did feel like I wanted him consistently he proved that's the style of kickboxing. He's good at the style where it's only above the waist because he caught straight on his hands and mainly his right hand. Now, when you throw the right hand, you don't have your weight on the back foot. It says that lead leg. So as he's thrown it, if you kick that lead leg, you do the damage. And if he is brought to Thailand, that's what they would have done. They were thrown twenty kicks every round in his lead leg. No matter what he tried to do. You just think about if your back leg, your weight is there, you can't do a real right hand. The weight is. So you know, Johnny's had a certain set of rules that he was the greatest at, and he was the full context style. 

And I will relinquish that style of fighting to him. Some people call me the greatest of all time and all that. He can't tell any of that stuff. That's all conjecture. And it's, it really is. It's fun for people to argue about it 

Jeremy Lesniak:

It is really a lot of fight.

Don Wilson:

In a lot of real fights. You don't know what would happen, right?

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah

Don Wilson:

And Ali used to say this all,  he's to say, I'm the greatest, you wanna know why because if I fight you 10 times, I'll win six out of 10. He's not saying he would win everyone. And I believe that is about all he got. There's not a guy in his day that would beat him would be hit six out of 10. He would figure them out. He would outsmart them with the second or third one. I mean, he might make a few mistakes, correct them, and then he'll beat you. He's got certain things that he can do better than anybody and that was moving around the ring. To this day, you don't see lightweights moving like that? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

No. 

Don Wilson:

Not on the ball because he just danced around the ring.

Jeremy Lesniak:

It was fast. 

Don Wilson:

Yes. And then when he was planted, he scored the left hand and knock guys out right hands. You didn't have the big uppercut like Forman and he didn't have the big left hook like Frasier. He had the right hand but he hit us right on the chin. He hit on the chin so much. They said it was a phantom punch. You know, I would like to say listen, but it's not. Real fighters know,  I know. It takes very little to knock, somebody out. If you just land right there. And the gloves. Ali wore the gloves that I wore in the 70s. There horsehair. They're not foam padding. They're literally if you cut them open, there's hair in there and supposedly came from a horse and that's what they stuffed them with. So that is it protects your knuckles. but it really translates into a hard shot on the chin. They used to have huge cuts on guys like Marcial, no, I mean cuts run across their noses and stuff because those gloves are different, like gloves we use today. It's not a hit harder than you know, they hit hard today as much but the gloves protect you know, I think who wants to lose a fight on a cut? I got head-butted accident.

Jeremy Lesniak:

and who wants to win a fight on a cut?

Don Wilson:

I don't, I don't. But I got to cut myself though. Once it was all coming into my eye I could see on my left eye and all and the referee came over there to look at it and I thought they were gonna right there just thinking you might lose my world title. I'm way ahead on points. And the guy, I must say the guy's dirty fighter he accidentally had buddy, I'm pretty sure 100% sure he accidentally hit me. And it might have been something that I did. Because I told you I'd like to stop closing them down. So I was probably trying to get in real tight. And I bought it, we bought heads at it, but it was going right directly into my lane. And it's weird, you know, we all of a sudden, you got to lose your depth perception. And to me, it didn't you know how you think oh, it's gonna go black. To me. It's like grey. It was weird. I never had blood cover my eye where I couldn't see but that was 1990. 

And I retired right after that fight because I was afraid of what I'm doing in these movies. And I don't need the money. I got,  in fact, the time that I take to get in shape to fight back then I lose money. And yet, when you do something, you lose money, or costs you money. It's not a career. It's called a hobby. kickboxing, because it wasn't making any big money. And the movies because it was I've made millions of dollars as an actor, believe it or not. And, of course, I spent it like everybody else special costume. Oh, sure. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

To keep the economy going.

Don Wilson:

But even at the B movies, when you would do five movies a year, and you do the math, I took 20,000 films, 20 was mine and I get your grant. And they all made a profit because they're all it's all about video. And the videos are being rented. People would go every weekend to the video source to see what they were going to watch that weekend. And if I had five movies in 13 months, I released once shot released five movies in 13 months, Entertainment Weekly came to me and said they wanted to do an article because to their knowledge. No actor in America has ever done that. But the video didn't exist, right? That's why Tom Cruise doesn't need five movies in 13 months. Actually, they were calling it five movies in a year. He shot and released. But wasn't really that but Entertainment Weekly said that. It was 13 months. But they were all shot in one year, but one of them was released the next year. Nobody does that. Now as a character actor, you can appear in 20 movies like Michael Madsen will do and Eric Roberts, but to be the star of one genre, like all martial art movies, which they were for me, that's all I started. If I'm not chicken, I'm not in the movie.

Jeremy Lesniak:

If some let's say we've got somebody who doesn't know your catalog of films, or maybe somebody younger? What movie should they start with? 

Don Wilson:

Red sun rising. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Is that your favorite one that you've done? 

Don Wilson:

It's an HBO world premiere I do for them. And it's got to live everything's it's got a love story. There's a female cop in his relationship with good character actors, Mako and Michael Ironside, and Edward Albert. It's just a well-made movie. The director was very experienced. He's passed away, but he was a British director. And he came here and that was the first movie he did in the US and he just did a great job. Now look, I like to take all the credit but I did what I normally do. I memorize my lines and I get my performance. Directors adjust them. Maybe they might say hey, you know you're coming off too strong. They're you. You need to back off a little bit or you're their director is the director of performance. So if you see a movie, and you hear a guy gets an Oscar, go look up the director. because that actor is given the performance by the director, unless you. I get I guess unless Tom Cruise because you just tell the director, hey, this is the way I want to do it. I heard that Spielberg by the way. Spielberg had a scene he told Tom what to do. Tom said come over here and they supposedly and I'm hearing this from the stuntman, the stunt man he was behind it airbag, and next to the airbag. They didn't know that the stock network was here at him. Spielberg was telling Tom Cruise why he thought he should do this certain thing in the scene. And Tom said look at my character regardless, my audience does not want to see me like that. Now, I don't know what it is crying. He said my audience does not want to do whatever still. Now, this is Steven Spielberg.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Can you imagine being such a big actor that you can tell Steven Spielberg? Thank you for your notes, but these are unnecessary.

Don Wilson:

Well, they're not coming to see Spielberg. It's true. That movie was called. It was the one with the aliens coming to earth. Were the worlds.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Don Wilson:

He did the remake of the world the realms.  And that was the one steel. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah.

Don Wilson:

So that's what I was told this by a stunt coordinator. He said we were behind this airbag hanging out and laying there. And we heard Spielberg called Tom Cruise because he's not going to do anything like that. They're gonna have a discussion on the cruise. So they thought they were alone. And he told me he brought that up because we were working together and he was directing me in a movie. And he was trying to say, to me, that says he knows that in the end, it's me and that my audience is coming to see like, but you don't want that I relinquish any power I have on movie sets, because it can only be one captain of the ship and as the director, and I tried to get the directors what they want, and I rarely have had any.There's one time though there is one director one time it's the only movie I made, that there are scenes in the movie I'm ashamed of.

Jeremy Lesniak:

You don't have to name it if you don't want to. But I'd love it if you did. Which one?

Don Wilson:

It's a movie called Black Dog. And here's the reason why I don't like it. I know what happens to you if I say the name of the movie ever since I'm gonna go see this movie. This is the one movie that was the regrets. But I called the director the Twilight Zone director. We got into an argument on the set. He wanted me to kick my foot and pointed my boots closer to the other actor's face. I said wait a minute. I'm not, this is not even safe what I'm doing. I'm not going to get closer to his face. You move the camera six inches to this side. And then it will show he had the camera here and I'm doing the kick so you can if the angle and the name of the actress are huge and Mathias uses the gutsiest nicest guy you will ever meet in your life because he just trusts me not to blind him. I was wearing cowboy boots is a point on it. And I'm the director wants me to get that closer to his face because it looks like a mess because he's got the camera in the wrong spot.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Was it his first martial arts flip?

Don Wilson:

Correct. That director wrote a script now the only reason he wrote the script is this Roger Corman comes to me and says Don, what movie do you want to make? And who do you want to? Direct? And I tell him this guy, this is James Moore. And the movie Nick called Blackbelt. But I think it was his screenwriter, he can write the script directly. And I like I mean, I believe we should. So I got him the job, that's the thing. So he comes to me and he says, Don. I'm not changing anything in this grip. Because if they didn't think I could do the job, they wouldn't gave it to me and I'm thinking to myself, I'm the one that gives you a job and you're telling me I have to the theme was this. There's a guy a serial killer, [1:18:22-1:18:23]. He's a big tall blond guy and I don’t know if you know him as an actor, but he's well known. And he the director says we have to show why he's killing what we have to show the reason. I said no, you don't have to show why Jaws eat all those people on that island. It doesn't show that the sharks swimming around. He can't find enough fish. So he starts with the character bad guy is defined by his actions. He's just an evil man because he emerged what why he does it. 

Why does Hannibal Lecter eat people? We never fit ever have a scene where you see him anything? We don't know, because they didn't show anything like that. He's defined by what he did. Now. He made us scare that guy and have Electrum. So this guy's a scary guy. And I said, he kills women, we're not sure why. But the director wrote a scene where he's got this young kid sitting on his mother's lap. And she's saying, I'm gonna make you my little husband. Like, for she was sexually molested by his mother, too. He grows up hating women. And that's why he's a serial killer. He's Is it a very distasteful scene? And if you're ever going to show anything like that in a movie, you should do it with what Jodie Foster did with this. There was a rape scene where a girl gets raped on a pool table. And it's based on a reality thing. And Jodie Foster was directing it and you do it? You do it for the right reason you don't use incest as a

Jeremy Lesniak:

It has to move the story forward. If it doesn't move the story forward. There's no point.

Don Wilson:

Well, you know what, to me, it stopped the movie, the movie dead tracks. They didn't do anything. If it didn't sell one more ticket, yeah. Like people aren't gonna say, oh, well, we don't learn why he just went, well then I'm not gonna rent, right? It's not like that. And anyway, that director and I never worked together again. Mostly, directors, I've done multiple films with them because we get along. But I have what they call mutual approval contracts. In other words, in every aspect of filmmaking, if I don't want to do it, I don't have to. I didn't like the scene. But I never enforced that. I've never forced some director or producer, including this guy. I never forced I told him that's why I believe we should just cut that scene out. He didn't agree. Kept it in. So yeah, I have never enforced it. But I keep it in my contracts because just in case, oh, there is a scene. RJ is this director's name though. He wants me to do rear nudity. In a movie, because I guess Van Damme didn't watch. I don't remember. Nobody why.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I think Van Damme did it more than once. 

Don Wilson:

Okay.

Jeremy Lesniak:

But that scene is seeing a butt.

Don Wilson:

But, he was the number two or three actors in the gay community when he was given Bloodsport and Kickboxer and all those which is nothing wrong with that you can be popular for the gay community. But if you show your rear end, I mean, you get anyway, I told the direct where do you want to be Jesus? Well, I'm in a whirlpool. And he said you'll just reach for the towel. And you'll see there's nothing sexual about you not gonna be having sex. And I'm thinking to myself, I said, You know what? There's not a single person who rented my movies, because that video is gonna say, it will show the butt. I'm gonna get this one that Don doesn't show us away from it. Nobody's read my movies to see my butt. I sit there and read them to watch me kick. But that's what I told the director. And I cut that scene right out of

Jeremy Lesniak:

That should be on a poster right there that phrase 

Don Wilson:

They don't pay to see my butt they see it. They see me.

Jeremy Lesniak:

They're sure there's your movie poster, pretty. 

Don Wilson:

That's a true story. It's not one of my movies. And I didn't show my butt in the movie. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Wow, this is this has been a ride. I know you're on social media.

Don Wilson:

Facebook.

Jeremy Lesniak:

If people want to follow you, and stay up on what you're doing. 

Don Wilson:

Yes,  Listen, When I travel around, I take pictures and I'm not like Cynthia Rothrock. She is meticulous about it. It's like a job for you. You should be getting paid but all this information is out. But I do.  I put it on. I talk to people all over the world. And I enjoy it. And I like being in contact with my friends through Facebook. I was in Iraq a couple of years ago and call my wife from the hotel. It is free, and just got I could see her and I had done when we had to shut down. I was in Iraq, signing the black belt of the President of Iraq's nephew or something. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

That’s cool.

Don Wilson:

Anyway, that's cool. It's weird. The things you do? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Yeah. 

Don Wilson:

Well, President Chechnya invited Me,  Mayweather, and a birthday party. So y'all flew that? whose birthday party? He's a big fight fan, the President's chest. I don't know what's going on now but I think cash who's causing so much trouble in that area, because I did like eight seminars in Ukraine about a year ago, a year and a half ago. And Ukraine is just like Russia, it's like, it's like we roll tanks into candidates because we don't like something they're doing. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

And I'm gonna ask that we draw a hard line there. I try really hard not the politics to come in. 

Don Wilson:

Not that politics. But anyway, I was in Ukraine, and then I taught seminars there and great people, just like the Russians, I go to Russia, and I'm very popular there. And their people are just crazy as well.

Jeremy Lesniak:

Two more questions for you. First one, if you could go back now, you can get in a time machine and go back to you know, let's say 18. Maybe right around that first fight and talk to 18-year-old you. What would you say? 

Don Wilson:

Well, I've made some mistakes in the fighter. And I was one of them it's not just a saying that anybody can be knocked out at any time by anybody. Like the worst opponent you ever face. could still knock you out if you're not careful. And because that actually happened to me. It's not just here the guy's record was nine and six. He was knocked out in the first round. He had three more fights. So now he's recorded 10-6, hit three more fights after that got knocked out on all three, and retire with a tenant nine record. So the fighter with the worst record knocked me out in the first round. So it's not a saying for me to say Oh, anybody that he was called a tune-up now first of all, in the first round, I was TKO went down, got up, but I was too dizzy to fight. So I would have told myself, you got to keep your defense and young fighters come in the gym and I said, Listen, defense first. Make sure you're not gonna get hit. Oh, sorry. I apologize, I forgot the call. Please leave a message after the job. If you've got your home covered with a warranty plan.

Jeremy Lesniak:

I love it. It's going full circle, right? We talked about this at the beginning that it's always a scam. Defense first. 

Don Wilson:

Defense first that switch. I wish somebody told me that first day now I learned that. I don't remember when in my career, but where I made it so that my opponents did not score on me. Therefore it took all the pressure off my offense, right? If you go through a round without being hit, all you got to do is learn to Jim's win that round. And so that's one thing. The other thing is, it's very easy to knock people out. All you have to do is hit him with a punch. They're not expecting. That's how you knock people out. If the guy's ready for it, and he's all right, you're not gonna knock him out. You're gonna get his head knocking. But you get him to I tell him you get to look at Heckle, and you hit him with the jackal. And that's a very simple strategy, throw kicks high. And then you drop down low, throw a body shot, kick low, and then come over the top of every hand right knock the guy out. So setting people up. You get them thinking one thing, like misdirecting them kind of like, get somebody to look at, well, the manager with the cake. The bowl looks at the cake, not the guy's body and he gets mad and he goes for the cake and they go and keeps missing the guy. 

And that kind of strategy doesn't just work in bullfights that work in the real fight game. There's a reason I keep my one hand down. I keep the tense that looks open. And guys try to throw overhand rights when I'm shouting the ball. They try to hit the South Poles right and, and I counter it with my psychic to the body. So I'm thinking like two moves in advance, you know, and like a chess player, you got to think of fewer techniques in advance, maybe even a few rounds in advance. It just is a coincidence that it was not planned as a strategy. But it worked out this way. My last fight was 10 round fight. I could throw my right hand because I had fractured my rib the week before the fight. So I was afraid if I threw the right hand that's supposed all this right? The guy might kick it in my head. So I kept my right hand here the whole fight and it's a ninth round or 10th Round and I'm not winning. Both my corner sin. It's close. And his hometown, Atlantic City. He's made events here many times you're not here. My trainer said look at those crowds in his sold-out crowd. 

He goes and if he gets the decision, there's not gonna be booing. He's gonna be cheered out of here because close fight and he's a hometown guy because you got to knock him out. So last round, he temporary getting knocked out. So I stood up and I thought, well, you know what, I might as well throw the right hand now, right? I mean, to last round them as well. And think of it he had not been hit with a good right hand the whole fight. So as luck was down, I took nine rounds to set him up. Not purposely though. Nobody would have the patience, or the guts to wait for nine rounds before you throw the right I think the right hand knocked him out. ring announcer gets the microphone, ladies, and gentlemen. Winner by knockout in the 10th and final round with four seconds left on the clock. And I told the whole field that story, he burst out laughing because if you had given me a script that said that I'd say no, we don't believe that. That's a close fight, he's probably going to lose any knocks him out, in four seconds. But that's my life. That's me that's a reality for me my last fight I want in the last four seconds. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

I love it.

Don Wilson:

Because so you set guys up there, the moral of the story is you're asking techniques that I would have told myself, pick your time set guys up. Don't wait until the last four seconds though. That just worked for me. But generally, you got to have defense first don't get scored on takes the pressure off your offense. And then when you use your offense, you get the guy thinking one thing, and then you hit him with something else. And that's you know, it's not rocket science. It's not a rocket that basically is successful. I had a 28-year successful kickboxing career. That's pretty much the basics. I worked defense first, which was different. Most guys don't hit the gym. They're all about what am I going to hit today. They're not about getting the ring to start moving. I watched Duran Duran thinks more like me as well. Well, at least when I went I saw him training for letter the first night. He was in Miami. And yeah, he was doing the moving around the ring for 20 minutes warming up, just slipping punches, not even really worried about throwing he just moved bob and weave it. And man, when I looked at him, I thought, wow, if he decides he doesn't want to get hit by Leonard, he's not gonna get hit. Because he just looks so great defensively. And think about this a guy like Durant, and he's a great fighter, we'll experience. And yet these young amateurs come in there and they don't do five minutes of warm-up like that. They don't want to spend time in the rain. They just want to get their gloves on and start punching the bag. 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Fundamentals.

Don Wilson:

Fundamentals. So those are the two things you know.

Jeremy Lesniak:

So I got to have one last question for you. Instead of another question which is what would tell you? This is what would you tell our audience today, we got people from all over the world trained in different ways for different reasons. What would you leave to them?

Don Wilson:

You know what? I like to save everyone’s nuances and everybody who’s gonna see this. As I have in my life - two careers, one was a pro fighter and one was a pro actor. And neither career would have been successful if it wasn’t because of the audience. Because nobody makes money as a fighter if you don’t have a stand full of people. Nobody makes money as an actor if people are not watching it or if the Nielsen ratings aren’t high or cause it was not the actor for me. And if they are not renting the videos or not buying the DVDs. The only way that I was able to have fun. Because it was really a lot of fun being a kickboxer. And the successful secondary career that Chuck Norris suggested that I do is acting because of the audience. And because of them, directly as a result of support. I was able to have people tell me your luck is on the hood, You are the lucky actor. Actors don’t come here two years later to star in HBO because it does not happen like millions of people come in every year to the actors and it doesn’t happen that you don't get to star in movies that often. How many kickboxers can you say that star in 30 films? 

Jeremy Lesniak:

Other than you, none.

Don Wilson:

And not all come from Hollywood films. I am in. so a lot of people would say oh you are a world champion kickboxer that’s why you starred in movies and I said no, maybe it got my break in the beginning but it was not that. It was that. I have support from millions of people all over the world to support my all movies, support my frank career. And I like to say thank you to all of them because that’s how the last thing, the ending of the interview is to thank you all the fans.

Jeremy Lesniak:

What a great conversation. I would like to thank Don for coming on and for being open, honest, and fun. Sometimes we get big names in the show and I am getting a little bit nervous there’s not going to be fun but guess what? They have all been super fun and something that I think that says about martial arts and what we do. The fact that biggest names in our space are some of the kindest, friendliest, and most entertaining people that you could imagine. I am glad that we are able to bring this episode to you. And I wanted to shout out, Andrew for all his hard work in making this one happen. It’s not always easy to get big names. For listeners, if you appreciate this episode and if you appreciate other things we do, please consider supporting us whether be on Patreon, whether it per views or purchases, books, or whatever it is, please consider. And to those of you who already do, thank you. You don’t know how much I appreciate you. If you have a topic suggestion or guest suggestion. Don’t be afraid to reach out to my email address, Jeremy@whistle kick.com, and or social media at whistlekick that brings us to the end. Until next time, train hard smile, and have a great day.