Episode 833 - Conversations With Stephen Watson
In this episode, Jeremy and guest, Stephen Watson, have a conversation about Martial Arts.
Conversations With Stephen Watson - Episode 833
Small actions can have a big impact not only in training but also in life. In this conversation, Jeremy and guest, Stephen Watson, discuss the importance of finding joy in simple activities, such as swinging on a swing set or taking off your shoes and connecting with the earth. He emphasizes the value of small actions and how they can have a big impact on our overall well-being. Stephen also talks about the importance of storytelling and how our interpretations of events can shape our experiences.
Stephen Watson is a martial arts instructor and owner of Someday Farms studio in Connecticut. He has been practicing martial arts for over 20 years and has a deep understanding of the philosophy and principles behind the practice.
After listening to the episode it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it. Comment down below!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Stephen Watson:
We're live.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We are live-ish. Yeah. Yeah. For the audience, if you don't know...
Stephen Watson:
Welcome to WTKD Radio, your source for today's hits and kicks and sometimes blocks.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That might be the funniest slash offensive thing ever said on this show. I love it.
Stephen Watson:
That's good. That's great. I'm so proud of myself.
Jeremy Lesniak:
As you should be. It is exceptional. Well done.
Stephen Watson:
That's funny.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well done.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. So you want to... I'm Steve Watson, Someday Farm, somedayfarm.org in Connecticut and by Zoom. So I'm everywhere.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. You've been on the show. We had a great talk.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You hold the distinction of...
Stephen Watson:
Just before we were doing video too actually.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You hold the distinction of the only episode where we had to add a video clip of you swinging on a swing to the show notes page.
Stephen Watson:
Now I feel like I have to go after this and go find the swing set and record it again.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, if you do, we'll add it in again.
Stephen Watson:
A little bit of joy. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. It's one of the more common recommendations I make to students, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really?
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. A lot of what my teaching looks like, it looks like a ministry or it looks like a therapy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Stephen Watson:
Whether that's physical therapy or psychological therapy. Not that I hang a shingle saying that's what I'm doing. I'm teaching...
Jeremy Lesniak:
The line gets blurry.
Stephen Watson:
Martial arts and philosophy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're focused on the personal growth stuff. There's a blur there.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. And one of the more common things I'll do is say, you know, don't drive by a swing set without stopping, you know. Like that's just joy. It's meaningless. You're not doing it to get as high as you can or do it as long as you can, or you're just joy, just swing for three minutes and then you're three minutes late to your meeting, you know? And we kind of forget as adults, like, oh yeah, swings are kind of fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Stephen Watson:
I mean, it's just kind, I might not want to build one in my yard and get on it every day, but just allow myself that sort of childlike view of the world.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It has no purpose other than joy.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There is no...
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, it's not, we're not function stacking. We're not, you know...
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
One could make the argument. Well, a slide has some purpose. You know, you could use it to transport things from high to low reduced rate of speed versus gravity, right? Like you could kind of back into almost anything else.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But what are you doing with a swing?
Stephen Watson:
Yeah, you're just going there and going back. It's going there and going back.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's counterproductive. It just, it burns energy.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? Like...
Stephen Watson:
There's no net gain except for joy and we forget that. You know, we just, we forget that. That's it. And it's free. Like, it's just, there's probably a park in your town or a school after, you know, school hours. You probably can't just pull up to a school these days and, you know, use the equipment.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Would be elevize.
Stephen Watson:
But you stop at the school on a Sunday perhaps or something, or maybe your neighbor has a swing and just go get on the swing. And one of the other things I frequently recommend is, you know, take your shoes off, walk outside. You know, like feel the earth connect to that, you know, it doesn't cost anything is a martial arts lesson. I don't know, you know, is it a philosophy lesson? Yeah. Does it connect you to, you know, the real teachings of humanity? Yeah. Like, is it the same as me showing you here? No, it's not, you know, so it's not that exciting. And people will often kind of sort of pre dismiss it when I start to say just go to a swing and they're like, oh I really wanted some good advice. I'm like, have you gone on the swing? Like try the swing and then ask me if you still need good advice, like it works.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think the biggest misnomer of modern society is that these big problems we have require big solutions when most of them are the absence of frequent small actions, right? How many people are chronically dehydrated? Drinking a glass of water is not a big deal.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But how many people aren't doing it?
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. The missed accumulations of the minor, you know, result in some more major effects, right? One of the things that I learned, I have a specific story about kind of when I learned this, but it was and nobody at this moment knows where I'm going. But it was a lesson on conspiracy theories. We're in a society which is made them relatively, available and given the microphone. So we're all kind of closer to them and we can learn about them. We may even hear about them or buy into them or whatever. But the idea is that if there is a small outcome, then I can expect and look for a small input and say, oh, like kind of makes sense, right? I snacked and I'm a little less hungry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Stephen Watson:
It makes sense, right? I had a couple sips of water. I'm not parched, but I'm not fully hydrated. That makes sense. And if there's a large effect, right, like, you know, I tore my shoulder. Oh yeah, I went to the advanced judo class and I wasn't ready. Oh, okay, that kind of makes sense, right, you know. But the difficulty is when there's a small input and a large output, the brain says, well, the input doesn't match. So I need to develop a story that suggests a larger input to make help me make sense like psychologically, maybe emotionally, certainly intellectually, make sense of the large output, right? So for example, how can six or seven razor blades on an airliner killed 2000 people, or whatever the number, you know, I didn't, I don't mean to misquote the numbers. But it's like that doesn't I mean, a couple of razors, but like, there's, do you know what I mean? And so it's like, well, no, I need to look for my sort of emotional, psychological, security-centeredness, settledness. I need to believe that more happened than that. But the truth is a small input can make a large output. Our committee said, give me a lever and a firm place to stand and I'll move the world, right? And as a martial artist, we better be understanding leverage, right? It's the efficiency of input to seek a larger output, right? This is why people will go to a demarked seminar like that. Are you kidding me? Like, I do this, and the guy falls? Like, count me in? Like, that's amazing, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think, you know, your example of, you know, the obviously incredibly unfortunate circumstances of 9-11. You absolutely can look at it as, you know, here's this fine point, this final step in the equation. But I don't know that we can necessarily reduce it to that. You know, and I think the equation does balance because how much effort?
Stephen Watson:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How much energy, how much anger?
Stephen Watson:
Planning, training.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, there's so much in there. And...
Stephen Watson:
Sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, if we take your, you know, your example of grounding and walking outside. Well, and I always preface this, you know, assuming that you believe in evolution because not everyone does, but if you do believe in evolution, then there was a time, not that long ago, where simply being outside was far more dangerous than it is today, and our body conditioned to that. So we could say, you know, today, yeah, walking around my grass isn't a big deal, but a hundred thousand years ago, that was kind of a big deal. And the equation balanced a little bit different.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah, for sure. And I think, you know, as a science-minded person, right, which I think martial artists generally are like we're looking for causes and effects and we're looking for hypotheses and we're looking to challenge them, whether that's inspiring or a question or improving curriculum or what have you, you know, how do I make sense of these things? This, you know, challenge of looking to understand what are the other inputs that led to this output? They might not be just the apparent ones. Or the sort of scariest part of the story, right, the razor blade, for example, that's a scary like that's obvious that you know, but like what else has gone into that and I agree, everything has to balance and one of the things that I teach is that you know when we fail to have or at least have thus far failed to understand the reasons for another's actions or expressions or behaviors or whatever. If I can sit back far enough, Yoda like, if you like, or you know, more like Daniel san's teacher, for example, right? Miyagi like. I should recognize that whatever the actions, expressions, behaviors are of another person, they do make sense. There is causation for everything. And right now, you cut me off, and I'm just having my own reaction. Maybe negative, maybe I'm swearing, maybe I'm tensing up, thinking bad things about humanity, or people in fiats, or what, you know, whatever it might be. But there is a reason for that. There's absolute reason. In other words, it balances. I don't know the reason. And it may be in this case, the guy cuts me off, I never will know the reason, right? But there's a reason the person's rushing to the hospital because their wife is pregnant, and they lost the last kid, or they're a jerk, and they actually did it on purpose. And because of how they were raised, and their kid failed out of school yesterday, and they're going to have to repeat it, whatever, I don't know, but there is a reason, it balances out, and most often we don't get to learn these reasons, but the brain wants to balance out the effect, which is that I'm inconvenienced, I got scared for a moment when they cut into my lane, or whatever, and so to recognize the urge to balance the story, And the ability that we have to story make. And if I'm not conscious of it, it's very easy for me to make a story that serves my expression of inconvenience or rage or disappointment or frustration or jealousy or whatever it might be. And if I can recognize, well, I have this power to create a story and So I get cut off and I just practice telling myself a story. Oh my God, I imagine that they've lost three kids and now they're running to the hospital to save their last kid of the same cancer that the other three had. And you know, good luck to him. I hope he makes it. Now, intellectually, I know the guy could just be a jerk and he was playing with his phone and didn't see me. And you know, that's certainly possible. But in that moment, I might as well tell myself a story that balances it and allows me to have a more, you know, pleasant life, you know what I mean? I'm the one having, bearing these effects. And...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. The person cutting off does not care. They do not care how you feel about being kind of...
Stephen Watson:
I play a role in the effect that the world has on me. And if I can kind of recognize that, it's almost like intercepting. Because my body gets tense, and I hold my breath and I snarl, and I swear, or whatever it might be. And what follows from that will be a story of, everybody in this town sucks or Jersey drivers are terrible or, you know, kids these days or whatever, you know, category I might want to put it in or every everybody's about it was better when I was kid, whatever I say, those stories feel good, but they don't serve me at all. They serve that negative expression. They don't serve me. So practicing, you know, where can they tell a story? And I know I'm just, it's a fiction. I'm just telling, I don't know what's true, but I am gonna be consuming a story here in a moment. I might as well thread and knit and weave that story in a way that will be, in deleterious to me, comfortable to me, perhaps healing to me, or perhaps just sort of optimistic about humanity to me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And of course, far easier said than done.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah, far easier said than done. But very, very rarely am I in a crisis situation. I'm a martial artist. I don't get into fights. I don't have cool stories about this and, oh, just last weekend, these two guys, it doesn't really happen. But I constantly have instances of somebody cutting in front of me in line, or somebody bumping me, or, you know, somebody being too loud next to me, or somebody, you know, not holding a door for somebody. I know, all these just... These are all small opportunities for me to practice exactly what I believe in and what I teach. But the stakes are very low. So they're easier to practice, right? Just like you do an awful lot of time doing Pumsae or two-step sparring or working on techniques. And then occasionally you spar and it's a little bit closer to reality. And the stakes are higher. You could get a black guy, you could jam your thumb, you could twist your knee, you could get knocked out. It's, I would say injudicious of a teacher to say, here's the technique or concept, the principle. Okay, spar. No, no, no, no, no. Let me develop an understanding of it, a facility with it. Get some repetitions in and all the different ways. And then at some point, okay, let's raise the stakes. I know you think you got it pretty well, pretty reliably got some confidence in it. But now let's spar these two black belts and see if you can actually make that come about. And they're not trying to beat you. They're trying to elicit that response and challenges. So sometimes you don't get Sometimes you do, you develop your confidence, but it's not, it's not without evidence, right? It's earned confidence, not unearned confidence. And so, you know, I'm just constantly looking in life, you know, where can I practice what it is I teach? You don't get very many chances to practice it at high stakes. But the amount of practices I get are innumerable, myriad practices. So that when the stakes are higher, I've kind of done this. I have some confidence. That confidence is based in evidence. There are practice, there are iterations. I could still mess it up. Absolutely, right? But I'm going to meet that challenge in a way that like, oh, this is my wheelhouse. This is my wheel kick. You know, this is not foreign to me. This is familiar. This is comfortable. And to be able to meet challenges with some degree of comfort, or at least without a unbalance degree of discomfort is something that we grow into as martial artists, you know, one of the great values of sparring is that I get comfortable with range with contact with getting my eyes watery with having so much data coming at me that I read, you know, like, there's so many good things that come from just sort of being not uncomfortable and perhaps even comfortable in these high stress, high stakes, high amplitude situations. And on that rare occasion, when a deer jumps out in front of your car, you know, or your neighbor says, you know I got my gun out, you're on my lawn or whatever, kinda hopefully I'm a little bit more prepared and it's not just hopefully it's, you know, it's evident in the fact of the process and progress in my life, you know, or your life.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And, you know, I love the kind of the synchronicity that we have here, you know, the idea of this very low stake, low-impact, low-risk actions that so many people have come to ignore. Coupled with, you know, the perspective into martial arts. And no, if you want to be better at sparring, the only thing you can do that makes you better at sparring is sparring. Well, you know, that's kind of ridiculous, you know, the best fighters in the world practice drills and they practice on a bag and with pads and things like that, but for some of us. We need to practice things that are even more fundamental, you know how many students have you had over the years who struggled to move their feet in a way that was efficient and low risk? You know, you get somebody who trips over their own feet because they're never without shoes, right? And so we asked them to, to walk around, to do these basic things, shoeless and there's just so much feedback coming from the ground that they're overwhelmed and they're moving.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And they need to practice that. That makes them better in an altercation if need be. Does it make it dramatically better? No, but if you had to pick a better or worse, wouldn't you pick better? I know you would. I think everyone would.
Stephen Watson:
And, you know, when we think about, you know, a sparring practice, you know, it's on a level and supportive and clean and clear floor. It's the lights are on. There are referees in case something gets out of hand. And there's a time limit and you know, when it's starting, none of those things occur in a real-life self-defense. But those are designed to help us safely elevate the challenge. And that creates an environment in which we can work towards developing particular skills. And I think that far too often sparring is practiced in schools in a way in which it's a release of energy. A nod to the ego. Like you, hey, you're good. Like this is your chance to be good. I mean, everybody knows you're the best one in the class. It could go be good, you know, and that's fun. And it's a chance to have fun. You're free. You're not doing a hundred pushups. You're not working on Kata number three for the 10th time tonight. You're not showing the yell about how to do the outside block. Just again, you just go, go spar, right? And I think there's some value there, but I would say it's quite limited. I think the value is like, here's what we're working on. You need to get more opportunities to work your low blocks, because here's this problem we've identified. Or the next thing you need to learn, you know, and so the person you're working with is going to give you more chances to do that and a challenge, right? Or I'm working on you moving your feet well, that's the focus. There's other stuff to do, but too often what happens, I think, in the, among the students and among the teaching staff and perhaps whoever's, you know, at the top of that teaching stuff, it's really just this half of class maybe or a third of class or whatever in which like everybody's spar. Your egos get ripened, the energy, emotions go up, the fun goes up, and then you go home, right? But like, what did we work on? What did we learn? And there's this, generally, this argument that something amorphously was learned. Like, well, I sparred. I'm better at sparring. I got some kicks in. I definitely won against two people. Like, I did good. So, Kevin, do you know what you were working on? Did your partner know what you were working on? Was there anybody helping you or were you helping them? And I think there's so much more sparring can often than what I usually see. And so I would often, deny people the chance to spar because they're pushing me to get permission to spar tonight. And I know that it's just about the fun and the freedom of that sparring, which is not nothing and there's some value there. But it's like I want to know what we're working on. Give me a discrete skill. or concept or principle or whatever that we're working on and it could just be like you need to work your left kicks like so just go do more left kicks tonight that's your weakness right okay great right that that's fine or do we ever spar in which you know the person that's sparring is holding a bag of groceries right or holding their phone like what do I do? Do I drop my phone? Do I try and put it away while the guy or something like that? Or am I sparring and I would do this with like a small bag, put a small bag on the ground? And that's your kid. Now you got a spar. Like I don't have the same freedom of movement. I can't move over here and now you're between my kid and me. So I'm limited. I also can't trip on the kid is just picturing like a three or four-year-old, like a little bit of sparring movement. The kids, like flung across the room, right? But I also can't leave the kid too far and I can't do big wild movements, you know, like simple restriction. Right. Very, very simple idea. And that's just a bit closer to that kind of real-world idea. But now we're all clear. That's what we're working on. We can still have some fun. We can still express our emotions. Like it's still sparring, right? But we know what we're all doing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think the best value of that open, non-situational sparring, which I refer to as free-form movement is identifying what needs more work. You know, there's always something if, you know, if you think of a professional sporting event, you know, a basketball game. If two teams are playing and one team loses and, you know, it's by, you know, 8, 10 points enough to, okay, so there's a pattern here. What's the pattern?
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, okay. So we really broke down in defending this corner. Okay. So who was...
Stephen Watson:
And you know, that they're reviewing the tape
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely.
Stephen Watson:
And they have a staff doing it and then there's a meeting and they're like, here's the four video examples of how you fall for that fake or whatever. There's a drill we have for it. Go work on the drill. Now let's try and bring it out in tomorrow night's game or yeah, for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's that constant revision iteration testing process that really is baked into martial arts, but I think quite often we're not as conscious about it. And if it is more conscious, then that cycle actually happens much faster.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And this is part of why I mean you've been around when I've taught my stuff with bringing things dramatically slower. And I know you do some stuff along those lines too that, you know, when you put up parameters, when you give people guidelines, you know, we're going to forget about this part. We're going to forget about speed and you know, you're not even going to be allowed to kick right now. You're just going to punch and you're working with somebody else who's just going to punch or just use their hands. And we're going to go really slowly and we're going to see what happens there, right?
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Cause it gives human beings. I've found myself saying this often and I'm curious.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How you relate to this statement? Human beings understand the world based on the boundaries that we have to us. I am in my home. I am in this room. This is my property. I am a this, you are a that, right? We inherently put up all these boundaries, but when we ask two people to spar at, you know, we'll give them a rough speed approximation that they need to stay at a rough contact approximation but go do whatever movements, you know, we do. What do most people do? The same three to five techniques that they always do.
Stephen Watson:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because we haven't given them boundaries that shift their ability to practice or understand or anything else so they can make progress on these fronts. It's time for a drill.
Stephen Watson:
One of the things that I would do is when I, I'd have Sparring. So you have two people sparring and the rest of the class is sitting around watching and I was thinking as a teacher, they're resting. But are they learning? Probably not. They're probably just cheering and watching or maybe bored or putting on their foam dip gloves or something by whistlekick coupon code in the comments. And I would say to them here's one example that the two it's far, maybe a couple of rounds, and then I pull everybody and say, okay, what did Roger do most often, you know, left jab or right round-house or whatever it was, whatever got the most boy votes next round, he's not allowed to do that. Can't get, you can't do the thing that you're most comfortable with or that's working. Or I would ask them for a mission. It's like, what did you not see from Sheila? You know, I don't, whatever it is. She didn't do any, you know hand movements. She right. you can't kick this round or you have to do at least half, you know, however we frame it. And so what I'm doing is I'm involving the other people. Like I need you to learn to study people. That's how you become a better student, a better teacher, a better fighter, a better sparring partner. It's like, I want you, but you're not physically involved, but I want you mentally involved. And that was a really helpful way to develop the mind of those students. And it also doesn't let them off the hook. Like you know, when do I get...
Jeremy Lesniak:
They're just waiting for their turn.
Stephen Watson:
You know, did you call me? You know, I don't want to see that in class. I want you engaged. And if you don't know what else to do. Practice being a good teammate. Cheer him on, you know, get him going like that's fine. If that's helpful. And then I asked particular people to learn to coach like, all right, you've done your cheering. Now I need you to coach like we got a minute between rounds. I need you to give them productive, whatever it is, and then send them out there. And then I need to hear what you're telling them. And you need to tell me why that doesn't have to be the best answer or what I would have chosen, but you can't just say anything. It's going to be here's what I noticed. Here's what we're about you or about them. Here's, we're going to exploit. Here's what I want you to watch out for, you know, and it could just be a bit of rah, rah, like you need a bit of an emotional boost because they kind of gave you a rough round. That's fine but I need to hear why you're saying that and then you're involving everybody. But again, that's just like I was saying with driving or like, you know, when am I not training, you know, I guess when I'm sleeping like I am, you know on a day when I don't have students in my mind is just like, I wish somebody would show up right now because I need to. Get this out of my head. I got an hour's worth of stuff. I need to say, just like somebody.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, the idea that observation is not in, but invaluable, non-valuable. In an educational process, it blows my mind how, you know, let's say you take like someone who's been training for a few years, you know, not a white belt, not a yellow belt, not somebody who's been around for three weeks and they, you know, they're tripping over their own feet, but somebody who's been around, they have a decent understanding of what's being taught, but there are a lot of gaps. Watching someone more practiced doing the same things, but much better. It's so incredibly valuable when there's a noticeable gap between my skill and the skill I'm observing, it's motivating. It gives me a direction. Okay, so I do this form and they do this form, but they do this part like this. Either I know what I need to do to go work on it and move in that direction, or maybe I don't, but I've created, there's a culture in this learning environment where I'm permitted to ask, how do I get from here to there? Right?
Stephen Watson:
That permission to ask is very important because what you find motivating somebody else might find intimidating.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure. And often it's both.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. So I would say that the thing itself is not motivating or intimidating. It's an opportunity to be motivated or intimidated. And that how you relate to it is largely dependent on where you're coming from, you know, what you're at. And you might be the guy who is generally motivated by a disparity in skill, like, which is great. Somebody else might generally be intimidated. And that person that's intimidated, or might likely be intimidated. I want to recognize that as a teacher. And like, how do I offer more rungs on the ladder? How do I, you know, offer you the opportunity to, as you say, ask a question or just share with me your concerns? Okay, well, there's a couple other ways that we can get there. Sorry, I made it seem like you know, it would be as if your first belt test is red belt, like, whoa, wait, like, thank goodness. It's yellow or stripe or whatever it is like that. That allows people to cross a larger gap. You know, we don't want to do an Olympic long jump. We want to do, I don't know if it's a triple jump or a, you know on the way. Yeah. Both are difficult. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you know, the number one thing that I see that changes this dynamic. So it's more likely that the Delta between where I'm at and where I'm trying to go is seen as inspiring is the conduct of the person at the top. Do they show what they do? And are they willing to be vulnerable and imperfect in front of their students? When they can convey that, you know what, we're all on a journey. I'm further down the path, but I'm not at the end. I've found, and this does not happen often, but in the schools that I see it, it is so beautiful because they say, look, you know, I do most of what you're doing better than you, but You know, maybe the person at the top is older or has a bum knee or something and, you know, now jump spinning whatever's or. You know, not they can teach them. They remember what they're doing, but they're not doing normally what they do. And if they do, yeah, they're not great. And I enjoy that dynamic and I've seen, I think I've seen it out of martial arts more than in martial arts, where the teacher is really more of a coach they are a guide they're saying, I'm going to help, you know, I've got some context and some experience you don't, but I'm still working on this stuff. I'm still getting better. And it creates rather than a very dramatic superior support subordinate relationship. It's more of a peer mentor.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. During COVID I decided to, I think I live streamed them, but I made them public one way or another was I said, I got somebody's, like, I don't know if it was notes, but I think it was curriculum. It was a curriculum with like a slight description. I think it was Kenpo of some combinations or whatever. They're called techniques or something and it's Kenpo. So there's like the guy punches and you do 17 things, you know, kind of, but you know, I don't have a familiarity with it. So I hit record, I set the thing up and I worked through. What I thought it might mean knowing I'm totally going to get stuff wrong and that's not I'm not even facing the right direction or whatever, because there's so much that's not written down that a Kenpo person might know. But I was like, I want to let people see me just without even a coach there, try and learn something. And obviously, 98% was messing stuff up, right? But I talked through my process. I'm just like, well, I think I wonder, well, that wouldn't make maybe it would be this, and I just did that for a series of those. And it's like part of that is to invite people into like I'm a student here.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That I think what's even more valuable than whether or not you get it right is observing the thought process of someone who is quite practiced in a variety of things and applying that thought process to something new and seeing how, you know, your brain works through that material. That's fascinating to me. And, you know, it was very similar to, it's almost like the inverse of what most people call bunkai or oil, right? Like application. So we're kind of inverting it and it's how do we get something out of words?
Stephen Watson:
Right. One of the lessons that I endeavor to impart to my students and I tend to wait till this, till it comes up and then I kind of launch into this thing and it's a bigger thing that I won't share the whole thing with you here now is that when they voice a concern over the disparity in skills between me and them, right, which might be frustration or a sense of impossibility. And it might be a sense of motivation, as you suggested. I'll say, look, here's something to keep in mind. My job is to teach. You're here as a student. I'm not going to try and show you something I'm still working on or having trouble with. That's not what you're paying me for. You're paying me to teach things that I have pretty well, I'm confident and I'm comfortable in, I've developed a skill in, so of all the things that I am working on or have been exposed to, there's some sliver of them that I'm competent in and, proficient enough to pass on. So those are the things I'm selecting. Of those things, I'm not selecting anything that you're already good at, because you're here to learn something new. So I'm further selecting from the things I'm very good at, the stuff that you're not good at. So that the sense that you're likely to develop is that we're here, right? But the truth is we're probably more wherever else it is. But over and over, you're going to continue to meet me only doing the things I'm confident and comfortable in and accomplished in and the things that you're not. I don't want you to draw from that, their conclusion that I'm great at everything and you suck at everything. That's not what we're doing. We're just saying of the things that you're not good at, which are the things that I'm good at. So I'm going to share those and work on them. Meanwhile, if you could see me in my house when you're not here, I'm messing up all kinds of things. And I'm trying to remember the form I learned 25 years ago. And I'm completely I used to have it. It's just gone. I'm looking at my note doesn't make sense. And I'm screwing this up. And I'm frustrated that I can't jump that high anymore and do that. And you know, my shoulder hurts or what I'm just like you, maybe it's different things, but my job isn't to show you that part. I don't think it's my job to hide that. But in a class setting, I'm not going to say, well, folks, let's everybody work on the thing. I can't figure out like you're paying me as an expert, right? So, I try and I graph that out on the whiteboard and I kind of show them like this is the disparity you're sensing, but it's not an accurate evaluation of where we actually both are. And if I went to your work tomorrow, And you're an accountant. It would switch and you'd be showing me all the stuff you're absolutely certain of and stuff. I definitely don't know, but there's definitely stuff in Excel. You're still confused about, but you're not going to try and show me that and I'm going to just be blown away. I can't even believe that you could do this and you press this button and Alt F3 and that. All right. And that's the tax code in Montana. How would you know? Oh, my God. You know, of course, it's gonna be that way if I visited your work, but you're visiting my work. So you get a skewed sense of that. And so when that comes up, I try and address it with that kind of teaching. And that's helpful thing for me to remember, you know, in this moment of the relationship with student and myself, it might feel this way to me. But that's not the truth of it. That's just in regards to this discrete thing we're working on, you know, it's different.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Most people don't have that experience. Most people don't have a place in their life where everyone around them is dramatically less experienced at a thing.
Stephen Watson:
Interesting.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right? Like if you think about the accountant, it's going to be unlikely that someone with zero accounting experience ends up being their direct report, right? They're probably going to go to school.
Stephen Watson:
They're working with accountants and CFOs and bookkeepers.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Stephen Watson:
They have. Some things, yeah, yeah. But I guess that's really just the story of being a teacher, like a teacher, a great amount of the exposure is to those who do no less on these topics. And that's why you're at the front of the class to do it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And outside of the martial arts, it's usually so stratified. You know, there are very few places where a single instructor is teaching someone on their first day and their 20th year in the same environment. We have that in martial arts quite commonly. It makes me wonder, you know three doors, two doors down, three doors down is an old one-room schoolhouse that's been converted into a home. And I think about just, you know, what this, what this space was like. Back then, what was it like to be the school teacher working with five-year-olds? In what? 17, 19, and 16-year-olds?
Stephen Watson:
16-year-olds? Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
In the same room?
Stephen Watson:
In the same room.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And how much were they mimicking what we do? Which is okay. You're 12, they're 5. I need you to work with them on their math. I'm going to go over here and work with a 16-year-old on their whatever, and it's a collective educational environment, much the way many martial arts schools operate.
Stephen Watson:
Right. Yeah, I think that's interesting to compare it to the one-room schoolhouse, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I bet somebody out there knows the history on these more than I do and can chime in.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah, but that's, that is what it's like. I mean, the dojo generally is a one-room schoolhouse. There's a big room and maybe an office or a, you know, a changing room or something. But I haven't been in too many dojos where there's three or four rooms. That's been my dream forever, you know, just have a room that's fully padded, a room, you know, with a boxing ring, a room with a, you know, like, just that would be amazing, right?
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are a few of them out there. They're pretty cool.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah, pretty, pretty extraordinary. But generally, yeah, it is like a one-room schoolhouse. And you have people, different ages, different skill levels, different ranks, if you like, working together. One of the things I just absolutely, I just so enjoy is the challenge of having a few people together with vastly varied skill sets. And I try and impart a lesson that's appropriate for everybody. One lesson for everybody.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'd like to ask about that. How do you determine what that lesson is?
Stephen Watson:
To me, generally what I do is I determine a category. Like here's a lesson on ranging or here's a lesson on blocking or breathing or whatever it might be. And I'll think I'll try and think of something that the most advanced person hasn't done yet, so it's new to them, but then. Look at it in terms of a principle or concept so that I can convey it to the, let's say, youngest or newest, you know least veteran person. And then the methods that the different levels might practice it might different, be different, like the black belt might be doing it in terms of a spinning kick and the other person's doing it in terms of getting their hands up. Or something like that, but they're all working on the same lesson, but the how of the application varies by skill, and I for me, the challenges I need to do it like that. I don't want them sitting around while I think it up and figure out. I just want to like, we're going to work on something with using the elbows you know, to hold somebody close. Okay. But in this person, I'm going to say, well, we're going to do it based on technique number seven, where we kind of have that set-up, but now I'm going to show you this variation. The other person can't start there, but I work with them on something else. To me, I so enjoy that challenge and now I'm letting everybody have the same lesson and not have to teach each other, which often is what I'm doing, but they're kind of getting it at their grade level if you like. And then I just, and I'm keeping plates spinning. I'm going around and say, oh, you already got that. Let me show you the next piece. Oh, that's not quite what I meant, but let's start over. That challenge is so great, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's exciting. It's exciting to be able to help that many people move forward.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That many different ways because you've got to be really good. You've got to remember, okay, what did I have this person doing? And of course, it gets harder and harder the more people you have in class.
Stephen Watson:
One of my most favorite things that happens to me, it probably happens once a year, maybe every two years. It is this thing where I've completely messed up. I have screwed up. I've messed it up. It's my fault. And so most of my students are private lessons. Probably 80% of what I do is private lessons and probably 60 to 70% of my students are teachers, so that's mostly kind of what my census looks like. And every year, every 18 months, something like that, what'll happen is I'll get my tea warmed up, I'll head on over, there were a few minutes before probably, and my student pulls in, I'm like, alright, good, we've got an hour ahead of us, you know, we were doing this last week, I gotta ask him about the homework I gave him, and then another car pulls in, I'm like. And like, I've scheduled two people at the same time. Like, I have messed it up. And, you know, maybe they're vacations or something. I just, I messed it up, right? So they're both here. So immediately, I just apologized to them both. And I said it's on me. I'm not going to charge anybody for today. I'd like to invite you both to stay. Because I can't really say who owns the spot. Because there was a mess up somewhere, you know. And in every case, they've both stayed, right? They've both stayed. But what's fun is that in that moment, I'm in error. I'm embarrassed, I guess, right? And I'm at fault and I'm not getting paid now, you know, but I figured the least I can do is just, you know, let's not worry about the money. We'll fix it next time again. I'm sorry. But what's really fun is that this person is an 81-year-old grandmother who's here to do Aikido. And the other person is a 14-year-old kid who is here to do meditation that quickly. I got to figure out. What can I teach them both? That meets what they're looking for. It might not exactly be Aikido, but it's, like, what can I do? And to me, that, I, it's Oh, it's so exciting. I was like, Oh, what can, Oh, what would be a cool thing that it meets them both where they are, but gives them something new. It's so much fun. So it's, I have so much fun that I wonder if subconsciously I cross schedule so I get to see those.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I would that in those cases because you're working so hard to make that correction to own the error.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And to find a way to convey value to both people, but because it's not what they expected, it's not what they've likely been doing, it's different, they probably leave, and they're most of the time, thankful and appreciative and, and complimentary. Wow. Great.
Stephen Watson:
Yeah. Something a little different. Yeah. To their credit, nobody's ever said, you know what, I'll just, I'll come back next week. And I'm a little annoyed. Everybody's just like, I'm in like, I'm happy. Oh, nice to meet you. Oh, you're Barbara. It's so great to meet. Let's try, you know, so much. And that starts with warmups. Like I got to warm them up, but this person does different warmup, you know, like, All right, let's do it. Let's warm up this way. And I show it's so so so much fun for me. You know, to do that, it doesn't happen very often. But again, that's like, I get to practice like, you know, do I really understand these arts? And if I do, I should be able to see similarities or Venn diagrams of what's going on. And keep it accessible to both. And one could be doing martial arts for 40 years and the other for, you know, three months or what can I do on that's new for both of them and appropriate to both. That's at a workshop. I don't know. There's 50, I don't know who any of them are really, maybe two of them, I gotta offer something that's gonna leave everybody, you know feeling like they chose the right workshop, you know, I talked over you, sorry.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's okay. When you have those situations, you said, I've got to find something that's new for the 40-year practitioner. Does it have to be new or does it have to be interesting?
Stephen Watson:
Well, it has to be appropriate in value.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Stephen Watson:
That's really the model. I like it if it's new.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Stephen Watson:
I, that, so to me, that's my additional challenge. I want it to be new. Which means I need to remember everything that everybody's learned and been exposed to, so I know it's new. So it's like an additional challenge for me. No, it doesn't have to be new. But I like to feel like, you know, the student that comes to me will get something new in every class. If they want to cover something again, that's what they practice for. They're here with me to learn. It's a school. It's not a practice hall. It's a school.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's a great point.
Stephen Watson:
So, you know, if you want to do that again, work out with your training buddies, go home, you have a whole week to practice. That's fine. And of course, over time, they do repeat things in the school. It's not like we just do the form once. But I wanna, you know, push myself and push them to experience new, and you know, revisit those things on their own. You know, one of the things that I do is my private lessons are hour long for the most part. And so you might be scheduled from 10 to 11. Somebody else is 11 to 12. But I generally say that if you're 11 to 12, you can come in at 1055 and, you know, jump in and be high energy and interrupting and saying hi, but just coming quietly and sit. And that's not a strong, it's not a great, trespass on the person who's paid for their time. It's a few minutes, but it's fantastic in terms of knitting relationships, people get to meet each other and get to know. And the other person will quietly be there and like, I've never seen Aikido get taught, or they might say, I've learned this before, but now, now I can just watch it be taught or notice that it's being taught differently to that different person than it was to me. And often the other person will invite them out. Why don't you do with me? You're already here. Come on in and to see those relationships getting it. I think is like so, so great. I mean, just one of the greatest things in martial arts for me is to see these relationships among students form and develop and bond and cross-connect. And then you hear a story of, Oh yeah. Yeah, I heard that before. And that's why I called her because her dad is a plumber. And then they came in. Oh, that's that. Oh, it's so great. I mean, it's not just sidekicks in high blocks like, you know, we develop a familiarity with and I trust in the people because they're known to you. And in this school and following the, let's say the ethics of the school and stuff. So yeah, why wouldn't I have you paint my house like, you know, and support those sort of things are when I find out like, Oh, you guys have been practicing together. What was it Thursday morning? Oh, that's so cool. Like that's so great. Cause you're both in the same town. So you meet at lunch and do your forms or like, Oh, that is so great. Cause martial arts shouldn't primarily be happening in the dojo. It should be happening
Jeremy Lesniak:
I totally agree.
Stephen Watson:
When you're awake, you know, in the dojo is where we meet the teacher, we meet the principles, and we meet the lessons, but that's not where we get to know them, right? You know, the story of a married couple starts with where they met, and it might be a pretty cool story. But most of the relationship was like them at home, like all those things and where we meet the teacher, where we meet the principles, where we meet the art might be in the dojo. But it had better be a small part of the whole story, right? Like, whatever I'm reading, whatever I'm listening to, whatever I'm observing. You know, I'm running it through martial arts in my head. And that's it. That doesn't mean kicking and punching, but just the whole, all of the lessons. I'm just like, Oh, I'm starting to see that. Or I don't see that yet, but it's gotta be there. Let me keep paying attention. Those become my lessons too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think we're at a good point here to wind down. I'm not sure if it's coming through, but it sounds like someone's mowing my lawn and I don't know who that would be. So I kind of need to go figure that out. I'm noticing the time and it works out kind of well.
Stephen Watson:
I hope that they're mowing it with two cots.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I have no idea what's going on. I've got curtains pulled because this is a very bright window and without going into detail it could be one of several people and I'm going to be very unhappy with all of them.
Stephen Watson:
Well, definitely keep the video rolling. We need to know the viewer's demands.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We may, when we air this episode, we might have to post an update in the comments about what happened.
Stephen Watson:
What happened to the lawn?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Who was mowing the lawn and why they were wrong?
Stephen Watson:
That's fantastic.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But I thank you for coming on and being here and,
Stephen Watson:
And yeah, a real joy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Always great to talk to you and yeah, we'll do it again soon.
Stephen Watson:
Thank you. I'll see you at Free Training Day.