Episode 978- Combatives Master Trainer Chris Adame
In this episode, Jeremy chats with Combatives Master Trainer Chris Adame about his experiences in martial arts and the military and how they are connected.
Combatives Master Trainer Chris Adame - Episode 978
SUMMARY
In this conversation, Combatives Master Trainer Chris Adame discusses the tribal nature of sports and politics, the importance of inclusivity in training, and the critical role of feedback in martial arts. They explore the dynamics of teaching and learning in combatives, emphasizing the difference between facilitation and instruction. Chris shares insights from his experience in military training and the evolution of the Modern Army Combatives Program, highlighting the need for combatives in law enforcement and the integration of prior experience in training. In this conversation, Chris Adame discusses the evolution of combat training within the military, emphasizing the importance of tactical applications and the warrior mentality. He highlights the psychological aspects of violence, the significance of safe training practices, and the bridging of military and civilian combat training. The discussion also touches on the importance of resilience and the need for individuals to face challenges head-on, ultimately fostering a mindset geared towards survival and effective self-defense.
TAKEAWAYS
Pro sports and politics share a tribal nature.
Inclusivity in training fosters a supportive environment.
Feedback is essential for self-awareness in martial arts.
Teaching is about facilitating learning, not just instructing.
Experience as a student enhances teaching effectiveness.
Combatives training is crucial for military and law enforcement.
The Modern Army Combatives Program has evolved over time.
Survival is the primary goal of combatives training.
Facilitation encourages engagement and connection in learning.
Enjoyment in training leads to better learning outcomes.
The evolution of combat training has shifted towards building confidence rather than just toughness.
Tactical applications in combat are crucial for survival in real situations.
The warrior mentality involves facing challenges head-on, whether in combat or daily life.
Understanding the psychology of violence can lead to better control and emotional resilience.
Safe training practices are essential for effective learning and skill retention.
Civilian combat training can benefit from military techniques and philosophies.
Running is a fundamental skill that should be prioritized in self-defense training.
The importance of instructor presence in teaching and learning environments.
Combat training should focus on practical techniques that ensure survival.
The willingness to engage in combat is a defining characteristic of a warrior.
CHAPTERS
00:00 The Tribal Nature of Sports and Politics
06:04 Feedback and Self-Awareness in Martial Arts
11:58 Facilitation vs. Instruction in Martial Arts
17:54 Integrating Prior Experience in Training
23:53 Evolution of the Modern Army Combatives Program
39:00 The Evolution of Combat Training
46:05 The Warrior Mentality and Facing Challenges
51:50 Bridging Military and Civilian Combat Training
01:00:03 Final Thoughts on Combat and Resilience
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Show Transcript
Jeremy (00:45.538)
First off, I want to thank you. And I'm realizing if you're in Hawaii, it's super early right now. What is it, like two in the morning?
Chris Adame (00:56.693)
Yes. It's approaching four.
Jeremy (01:02.099)
Okay, all right, so barely better, better, but you know, still, thank you for your willingness to do that.
Chris Adame (01:04.789)
Yeah.
Chris Adame (01:10.699)
Yeah, for sure. you know, I think that for one, you know, what you're doing is incredibly important. The fact that you're willing to include me, like little old me, is an honor within itself. you know, I couldn't, I had to make myself available, you know.
Jeremy (01:28.714)
I appreciate that. know, one of the things that I say, I don't know how familiar you are with the show, but one of things that I say is that, you know, we're all doing roughly the same thing. You know, there's a lot more overlap than there is that separates us. And yeah, we've got different reasons for doing it. But I think that's worth celebration. And so we work really hard to include
Chris Adame (01:50.59)
Absolutely.
Jeremy (01:57.298)
Everybody that is even remotely martial in what they do Because who am I to say that's not where that is right? like my definition doesn't have to be anybody else's definition and
Chris Adame (02:10.687)
Yeah, what an inclusive way to approach it though.
Jeremy (02:15.702)
Yeah, yeah, he's, you know, because if I think I think if you do it the other way, right? It leads to arrogance and ego. And that doesn't serve anybody.
Chris Adame (02:26.579)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it becomes elitist, you know, and we protect some like back to the tribalism, you know, we, we, we find the things that, you know, bring us together, and then we make barriers to being together, you know, and just look at the state of the world, you know, not only from a, you know, just what I can observe, you know, and anecdotally.
Jeremy (02:31.564)
Yeah, yeah.
Chris Adame (02:52.438)
but geopolitically and all that kind of stuff. We are so divided that why have division in this? It's unnecessary.
Jeremy (03:02.274)
It is. just, you know, we run a, we run a program from our short schools, helping them grow. And one of the schools in that group reached out to me last week and said, you know, we are having some issues on the mats with people talking about politics. And obviously it's not going well. We don't want it. How, how do we, and you know,
I kind of coached that school through my thoughts on it. And I wrote a big blog post yesterday. And what it really comes down to for me is what we do, however we look at it, whatever style, whatever the martial combative training we're doing, it has such amazing opportunities for the people who participate. And we know that because we've been through it. Why would we ever want to do anything?
that would restrict someone's ability to come in and get that good stuff that they need. And even if that means I am incredibly passionate about some subject, let's say it's politics.
How can I be so arrogant and so selfish as to not be willing to put that aside for an hour so other people feel comfortable to train? Right?
Chris Adame (04:21.151)
Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting you say that because I've been finding myself, especially, you know, since I've been traveling, kind of relying on this again, anecdotal observation, but there was a study that I came across about the level of individualism in a society and how individualistic Americans are versus the world.
And we are, you know, if not the highest by a long shot and one of the highest individualistic societies. And, you know, you ask, how could I be so selfish? And answer is easily. Sadly, but it is, you know, here it's, know, like we have so many different cultures within America, which is a beauty in itself. But, you know, there's also this
Jeremy (04:54.209)
Hmm.
Jeremy (05:02.245)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Chris Adame (05:14.943)
this thing that like American culture drives, which is you kind of have to focus on what is in your, you know, your, your, your, your immediate radius and take care of that. And that does create a hyper fixation on your desires. And, you know, maybe that's a product of capitalism. I don't know. I'm not that, you know, well-inversed in it, but I think it does show up in those ways that, you know, we're thinking about ourselves far too often versus the other.
Jeremy (05:40.674)
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, let me, let me just say this before we keep going. This is gold. Do you mind if we just keep going from here and not cut this stuff out? Okay. All right. Once in a while we do this where, you know, we don't have what I would call like a hard intro. we call this like a rolling intro.
Chris Adame (05:50.337)
Sure, yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy (06:04.022)
when we think about training.
How good can you get by yourself? Right? It's really hard to get good by yourself. There's an element of selflessness or service or connection or however you want to look at it, right? Like it has to be there. Yeah, I can throw all the punches and kicks I want in the air. I can do all the forms that I want and I can get really good at some of those things, especially if someone is, you know, offering me feedback.
Chris Adame (06:10.134)
Mm-hmm.
Jeremy (06:34.742)
But the majority of people who train at some point want to at least be able to say, yeah, I've worked this material with someone else and I have increased confidence in my ability to utilize this skill set. That requires another human being. And as they do that for you, you do that for them. we recognize it most of the time, most of us seem to recognize.
Chris Adame (06:52.769)
Absolutely.
Jeremy (07:03.606)
I need these other people. the longer, and I'm curious what you think about this. In my experience, the longer I've been training, the more value I have for people who have dramatically different skill sets. Because if I spend 10, 15 years in a school, I'm sparring the same people.
Chris Adame (07:24.946)
Absolutely.
Jeremy (07:31.468)
they're doing roughly the same things. And I get really good at defending that stuff and vice versa.
but the person on the street or the person in competition or whatever is gonna have a different skill set.
And I need that, right? Like, so I need that diversity if we want to.
Chris Adame (07:52.854)
Yeah, I concur. And I think the piece in there that you really hit, know, the word that was like kind of going back in my head is the feedback. And it reminds me of a story of there was a painter and I don't know, I can't verify it, I wasn't there. But there was a painter who was contemporaneous with, you know, Michelangelo and, you know, the painting of Sistine Chapel and whatnot.
And, you know, he was aware of Michelangelo's monumental accomplishment. And he's like, I'm going to do the same thing. You know, and what he did is, guess he locked himself in the chapel for years. And he spent like just incredible amount of detail and time on everything. And when it was just by himself and when they finally opened up the doors to it, the art was hideous because he spent so much time.
thinking, you know, kind of, again, hyperfixated on, you know, accomplishing this thing and doing this thing by himself that he had no feedback, he had no perspective, and he lost perspective. And it just the hands were too big and the feet were funny and, you know, all these different things. And he couldn't tell because he became hyperfixated and whatever was going on in his head. so that feedback is critical in our own self-awareness.
Jeremy (09:14.966)
Mm. Yeah.
Chris Adame (09:15.561)
Right? Yeah. mean, you the feedback I'm getting from somebody else is going to help me in the real life application, but it's also going to help me be more aware of me and how I'm thinking and, the holes in the way I approach things and my understanding. And I think that's just a nice anecdote to kind of bring that.
Jeremy (09:35.008)
Yeah. Yeah. Before we go further, Chris, how do you say your last name? Adame. Okay. And you you teach combatives, military combatives?
Chris Adame (09:38.473)
It's a damai.
Chris Adame (09:44.725)
Yeah, Army Combatives, well, it's a modern Army Combatives program, MACP. I've been teaching that since 2018. And it's interesting because already some of the points I really wanted to bring out about what my involvement in combat has been, we're already touching wave tops as far as resiliency, confidence, and of course, the actual skill set itself.
Jeremy (10:15.252)
Yeah. Now, I believe you're the first person that's come on from, what was the acronym again?
Chris Adame (10:22.956)
Modern Army Combatus Program.
Jeremy (10:26.178)
Okay, Mac Pete. So we've had a few people on coming out of the Marines that have been involved in the MicMap program. So to the audience, if you're unfamiliar with that, you might want to go check out some of those episodes as well.
Chris Adame (10:27.359)
Mac P.
Jeremy (10:40.384)
But as you're talking, I think you may have helped me drop the last piece into a puzzle that I think we all accept, but I haven't been able to solve until right now. And so I'm gonna throw this at you and see what think.
Most instructors will say that when they start teaching, they learn so much so rapidly in the front of the room and, and, you know, students, especially when they're new, they have a hard time wrapping their head around that. But what I think it is, it's that word you use, it's feedback. Because as a student, I'm getting getting partial feedback from my instructor when they have attention for me.
If I'm in a room of 20 people and it's an hour long class, I might get three or four minutes of feedback.
When I'm in the front of the room, I'm getting 60 minutes of feedback times 20. That's a lot of data. That's a lot of information. And when we put things out there as instructors, we can say, OK, try this, do that, correct this. And it's just an overflow of information. And it allows us to get a lot better really quickly. What do you think?
Chris Adame (11:58.017)
Yeah, so I think it'd be helpful to kind of put my experience as an instructor in perspective with my experience as a student. And so I've been teaching combatives since 2018, but I've been involved in combatives since my time in the army, 2007 began. you know,
Jeremy (12:07.276)
Please.
Chris Adame (12:21.473)
We're doing these things. We're like you said, we're getting this instruction. We're going out. We're trying it. We're drilling it, you know, one, two, three, right? It's fun and you win some you lose some right but especially if you're new to something What I found is I'm not even recognizing when I am learning necessarily necessarily it's kind of just happening and so I was in I didn't get Qualified until 2018. So we're talking about was that an 11 year gap?
Jeremy (12:41.174)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (12:51.271)
of doing this thing and not having any real structure to it, just kind of doing it.
Jeremy (12:58.934)
No, when you say qualified, do you mean qualified to teach?
Chris Adame (13:02.209)
Yeah, so the Army Combatants Program is three levels, or we don't call them levels anymore. It's three courses. You have the Basic Combatants Course, the Tactical Combatants Course, and then the Master Combatants Course. And another thing to put into context is when we train, every training day is eight hours, and the first course is 40 days, or it's 40 days, 40 hours.
Jeremy (13:25.41)
Mm.
Chris Adame (13:29.825)
The second course is 80 hours and the third course, the master course is 160 hours. And so we're talking eight hour training days, but roughly 10 hour days of just exposure to this experience. And so, yeah, again, there is a lot of feedback in those classes because the way military training works is you need to learn a lot really fast, right?
Jeremy (13:55.198)
That's a week. That's locked in for a week. I that's intense.
Chris Adame (13:59.497)
Yeah. And know, my last class, the basic course I taught, had a, a master, no, excuse me. had a black belt in multiple disciplines in the class and he really helped put it in perspective that, you know, he teaches a class and you know, you do, you know, two or three techniques and then drill and that's your hour. And here we were learning, you know, maybe 10 techniques a day and drilling. and then
getting the feedback and you know what not and you know that's it's just a completely level different level of intensity and so as a student I became a jujitsu student in 2023 and 2023 yeah and I learned a lot from my instructor on how to instruct as a student because
what I realized going back to training is I did a class prior to starting Jiu-Jitsu. And then I started Jiu-Jitsu and had an actual instructor, you know, for the first time in my martial arts career or experience, had an instructor, a professor, Mateus, and also Mark. And they spent a lot of time, because we're a smaller class, Gracie Jiu-Jitsu and Brentwood, you know, and
Jeremy (15:06.55)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (15:25.323)
There was, they spent a lot of time, but still, you you learn a technique and you're working on the technique and you find yourself looking around like, you know, does anybody see, can you help me? You know, and you you start, then, you know, eventually you start kind of trying to help other folks and you're like, but this works for me. Why isn't it working for you? And you know, some of their techniques on how to redeliver that information like, Hey, a point of emphasis or further study and things of that nature.
we're kind of interjections to say, this is something that I've been doing for so long that I missed this detail, or maybe I didn't go deep enough on this detail that this may help you. And so going back to, know, now I'm teaching again with this experience of, you know, a martial arts professor. it completely changed how I delivered instruction, because I'd look around.
Jeremy (16:01.996)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (16:22.303)
and I'd be like, okay, there's a lot of different things happening. None of them are what I showed. And so this is important because in, know, in, in combatus program, you do test out and in order to get to the next level, you have to test them. And so it's very important that the key performance details are understood. And so that'd be one of those times where I say, Hey, you know, all eyes on me.
Jeremy (16:40.45)
you
Chris Adame (16:50.603)
here's a little bit of further study on this technique. And really emphasizing some of the mnemonic devices, which are really helpful, maybe not helpful to everybody. Maybe I don't learn as deeply with the mnemonic device, such as rock star, free the hand, grab the belt loop, whatever the case may be. Maybe I don't learn that way, but somebody else does.
and really making all of those different modes of understanding available to the group of students there to ensure that when I look up again, we're all doing the same thing or something similar and effectively. yeah, I think just all of that data, all of that time, it is a lot. It does rapidly help the way we train, but having somebody who can make effective training an hour,
you know, that those techniques do work in that expanded format for sure.
Jeremy (17:54.071)
You mentioned having people come through that have prior experience. And, you know, I never served my outside understanding of the early stages of military service is that there's a lot of molding, a lot of shaping into this is where we need you to be so we can build you into what we need you to be right like
That's kind of the stereotypical example of boot camp, right? Break down the ego, break down the body, rebuild it in what we need. How accurate that is, I don't know, but you're nodding along, so at least it's not completely off base. So it makes me wonder when you have someone come through that has prior martial arts experience, do they have a hard time?
Chris Adame (18:47.211)
question. It's really dependent in my experience on the instructor. And I pride myself on being less of an instructor and more of a facilitator. And so what I
Jeremy (19:01.058)
We're going to come back to that because that's not an accident. You've chosen that word, but keep going.
Chris Adame (19:08.969)
Yeah, absolutely. And so, you know, what I I try to tell people or what I try to tell what I do message my students is, you know, you know, for one first get a look a feel of who's got prior experience in what disciplines and acknowledge that, you know, the modern army combatants program is comprised of, you know, jujitsu, taekwondo, judo, like, you know, a gamut boxing, kickboxing, you know, a gamut of martial arts.
that are designed to be battlefield effective, right? It's a modular training system in the sense that, you know, if this thing is effective, use it, employ it, do it. Because your main goal is to employ these techniques to come home, right? And I think that's one of the things that is very important when it comes to messaging what combat is about. It's about survival. It's about understanding that this is to be used on the battlefield.
and not necessarily in the bar. But then also recognizing that, you have this skill set here or these different skill sets, which may have deeper understanding of X, Y, and Z. And rather than shut that level of experience and that knowledge and really those tools, rather than shut them out of your class and say, you have to learn Army combatants and that's that's all that matters. You know, I say, hey, there's this gamut of this hodgepodge.
Jeremy (20:10.348)
Mmm.
Chris Adame (20:36.659)
of techniques so they may look familiar, but it's very important that, you know, if you have something to add, please add it, but understand like these are the things that you're going to be tested on. So, you know, if there's a better way or a different way that you know of or something you want to add, please add it in the group setting or let me know and I'll deliver it because we want to leverage that thing versus you only learn this and what my limitations are.
And one of the things that really, you know, inspired that was when I, when I became a master, master trainer, I had it, I did a lot of combatives prior to, and I was really good in combatives. And what I didn't realize is that those other skill sets existed and they existed in my class until I, I brought one of the students on and you know, he, you know, as an instructor,
Jeremy (21:04.802)
Hmm.
Jeremy (21:28.044)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (21:33.941)
facilitator, somebody on the podium, you can kind of tell when somebody either is disinterested or, you know, thinks you're full of it. You know, and so this one particular soldier, he was kind of like, you know, he was giving me the due courtesy and respect, but also kind of like, whatever, you know, he was phoned it in. Yeah. And so I brought him down and, know, we kind of, we, you know, we slapped, bumped fist, you know, bump fist.
Jeremy (21:52.726)
He was phoning it in, you could tell. Yeah.
Chris Adame (22:02.567)
And we started going and everything he was doing was familiar, but different. And in a way that it completely neutralized everything that I thought I was good at. yeah, so, and what it was, it was very simple things, right? We were grappling, we were rolling and he was grabbing my, the bottom of my, my uniform or he was, you know, my, my, my pants and he was grabbing the cuffs on my sleeves.
Jeremy (22:16.802)
felt interesting.
Chris Adame (22:32.177)
And I was like, you know, what are you doing? It was super frustrating. And he's like, you know, and he's like, I do jujitsu, you know, in the gi and I'm like, I'm nodding it in now. Okay, cool. I have no idea what you're talking about. Right. And once he kind of like helped me understand that, you know, this is very similar to jujitsu, but it's also different. And what he was doing that was different was, you know, neutralize me. said, there's, there's depth to this that I don't understand.
And as an instructor, I'm having this guy sit on the bleachers observing when he could be adding something that helps some of my soldiers come home.
Jeremy (23:12.154)
Now that requires, you know, we've talked about ego that requires putting the ego aside, especially in an environment that is, you know, when you're talking about soldiers and you're talking about these very intense days, know, testosterone is going to be up, right? So your ability to suspend that, to incorporate, to better what you're teaching, to better all the folks that you're training, is that something that is
to you or is that something core to how this program is presented? Would your other, would your fellow instructors, facilitators be as likely to do that as you?
Chris Adame (23:53.567)
I'd like to think so. I think the way the program is designed, it's designed for somebody like myself who could pick it up and go execute this, train the trainer, and be effective.
But I think with any train the trainer program, the effectiveness is gonna be increased or decreased by that instructor's experiences, knowledges, and humility, just the overall qualities as a instructor slash facilitator. And so for me personally, there were plenty of times where,
You know, I'd have a soldier get on the mat and you know, we're gonna go at it, know, within respect to the training, the fact that we have other things to do and this isn't, you know, worth getting hurt for. But we're gonna roll, we're gonna tussle, we're gonna squabble. And that's part of the fun of it, right? And that's another part of the Combatus program, which is you get that immediate tactical feedback because it's designed for you to go live roll.
Like that's what we're looking forward to. That's the end goal. But in order to get there, you got to do it safely. And so you got to learn the techniques and get the feedback and so on. So we definitely do have that aspect of, of, you know, let the soldiers be soldiers and, let's go, let the fighters fight. But also there is the, the aspect of saying, you know, but how do we, you know, personally, how do I make this more enjoyable and more relatable?
Jeremy (25:02.082)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (25:31.189)
to those in the room with me, right? Because I don't know it all. So I think the program is designed to have that flexibility. And I think I'd balance it well. I hope my students have felt the same. But yeah, think it's designed for that purpose, for sure.
Jeremy (25:34.05)
Bye.
Jeremy (25:50.038)
Makes sense. So let's go back. You said the word facilitator and my eyes got kind of big because I love your choice of that word. It's similar to some of the of the things that I say to my students. know, I'm my job here really isn't to teach you. It's to. And I've used the word facilitate. There's another word that I'm trying to find that I've used. It's my job to help them learn.
and educate themselves, right? Like I'm creating an environment, I'm making sure they're safe, I'm giving them material. But at the end of the day, you can't make someone learn. You can't tie someone to a chair and put knowledge in their brain, no matter how violent you are with them. It doesn't work. So you have to guide them. That's probably the other word. You're used to the word facilitator. My gut tells me that you've spent some time thinking about that and ended up with that word.
Chris Adame (26:44.993)
Yeah, absolutely. So I was a soldier for, well, still a soldier, right, for many years. And all I wanted to be after my basic training was be a drill sergeant because my drill sergeants inspired me so much.
And what that led to was me actually, you know, eventually becoming qualified as a drill sergeant and then interviewing to be a instructor at the drill sergeant academy. Well, the United States Army drill sergeant academy, he said it. For those in my circle who know what I'm talking about, they'll get it. And so,
Beyond that, we get certified as instructors, but the instructor course is really a facilitation course. And in that facilitation course, they tell you your job is to encourage and empower those in your charge to be engaged, to involve themselves, and really draw out the knowledge that already exists within your classroom.
And so I spent many years as an instructor, facilitator within the drill sergeant scope or the instructor of drill sergeants within that scope. during that time, I became an instructor for the combatants program. And taking that experience in the classroom over to the mats was, I think, very critical in
helping soldiers connect to the program. The Modern Army Combatants Program is, I don't wanna be sensationalist, kind of controversial, right? Because the first question is, people don't like fighting. It's a foreign space for many people. And when they think about fighting, especially in a combat situation, it's like, why would I fight? I have a firearm.
Jeremy (28:55.915)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (28:56.731)
And yes, you do, but this program was designed specifically for the close quarters battle and the fact that you may not always have 300 yards or 60 meters or any type of projectile space to employ your firearm or your secondary firearm and you may be within a close fight. And those concepts, there's barriers of appreciation for
what the program does that are just up. People's defenses are up. I have a firearm, I'll never be that close, blah, blah. And it's a very underutilized program because when you talk about bodies on bodies, people can get hurt. And in the military, our greatest assets is our people, right? So there's this, I don't wanna say a balance, there's this imbalance of...
what the program is and people, soldiers come to the course already not wanting to do it. Especially at the Drill Sergeant Academy where I did the majority of my classes. It's a little bit different in the reserve because in the reserve you really have to kind of go after everything that you get. In active duty, it's kind of like thou shalt. So a lot of those folks who would come to the Drill Sergeant Academy at the time,
Jeremy (30:02.721)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (30:22.517)
the basic combat is a qualification was required. So they would have to go through the course and you know, they didn't want to do it. And so my job was to figure out, or at least the job that I took on was how do I make this enjoyable? Because when you enjoy things, you're going to do them, you know, you're going to do them better. You're going to be more effective. You're going to going to put more, more thought into it. And you learn better when you're having fun.
Jeremy (30:31.659)
Hmm.
Jeremy (30:38.53)
Mmm.
Jeremy (30:48.335)
You learn better when you're having fun. mean, that's why kids do what they do.
Chris Adame (30:53.607)
Exactly. And so how do I, you know, take this disdain and these and recognize, acknowledge these barriers, and then find ways for you to navigate those barriers on this journey with me. And that was a big part of the facilitation. It wasn't me, I could get up there and say, you know, this is a rear naked choke. And you know, this is how it feels to be, you know, like you said, nobody cares, right? Like, it's not going to make them remember it. It's probably going to turn them off to the program even more if it's
forced upon them. Whereas in the facilitation approach, it's more so like, I understand that. But you know, what if you go into a room and you know, somebody, you know, puts the, hand of your muzzle or their hand on your muzzle and pushes it down. Then what there's a technique for that, you know, and, or in basic training, you're going, you know, we got, we, in the army, we have a thing called the operational environment. where are you going to operate? And you know, Hey, you're in basic training.
what if one of these trainees decides that they're finally going to, you know, punch the drill sergeant, like, you know, we all say we're going to do, right? You got to know how to survive long enough for your battle buddies to get there. or, you know, maybe take that, that trainee down or whatever the case may be. And then you see the lights, whatever that, that thing is that connects it. The, and those lights go off in their head and they're like, okay, this makes sense for me because, and that's something you can only get from facilitation. I don't think you can achieve that from instructor.
Jeremy (32:22.398)
That makes sense. you bring up a point and you know, it's not surprising that so many of the soldiers come through and they're resistant to hand to hand. You know, so many people and the vast majority of them have never trained any martial arts. just say, know, I just need a gun. And it's something that, you know, anybody who posts any content online will get this feedback, right? You look through YouTube comments, you look through TikTok.
It's well, know, glock-foo or whatever they say, right? you know, and they want the very simple answer and firearms are a simple answer, but there's a problem. There's a major problem with firearms and that is that they're really, really good at doing one thing and that's killing people. And you don't always need to or want to kill people. Now, of course, that's less, I would say a little less of a concern.
in your environment, because these soldiers are training to go out into battle where mortality is expected in part of the equation. But for us civilians, you know, it is legally there are lots of situations, right, where
If we deploy a firearm and we take a life that is seen as excessive force. And so we need something else on this, on this spectrum of violence to be able to, to survive, be able to utilize our skills.
outside of firearms, right? don't know if I articulated that well, but I think you know where I'm going.
Chris Adame (33:57.611)
Yeah, no, think it's absolutely. So one of the things that, again, not having the perspective on what combatives was to two civilians. I was talking to a police officer, well, to be specific, there was a police department who hired a community liaison to really work with homeless folks in San Francisco, in the Bay Area, and in the BART lines, the transit lines.
and really helped with deescalation. And, I was working for a nonprofit, a veterans rights nonprofit. And so every now and then we would intersect and, know, we kind of talked about the, you know, my background, their background, whatnot. and when I brought up combatives, you know, they were like, Whoa, there's, know, we really need stuff like that within the force because there is a space between, you know, a situation and, know, the use of firearms.
And there are many levels that, you know, need to be employed or should be employed, can be employed, depending on the situation, that not enough officers are trained on. and so they were, you know, they, they, they made a recruiting pitch, I'll say, to bring me on, but you know, I didn't realize the need of it until I started, you know, and that was maybe, let's say 20, 26, 2014 or so.
And so you think about what's happened between 2014 and 2024. I started to see the need like, this is a real skill that, you know, can really benefit people in all walks of life. And again, in the reserve, we don't just have our military jobs, right? We have our civilian jobs, which we do for 28 days out of the month. And so, you know, a lot of folks are in the medical fields or in the in corrections, you know, police.
firefighter, you you name it and they deal with these, you know, kind of high risk situations, that you can't necessarily resort to firearms for, or that you, you know, that wouldn't be appropriate. And so, you know, there is, there were times where, know, my instructor or my assistant instructor and my students would say, this would really help me in the hospital because, you know, patients get out of hand or, know, as a, as a correctional officer or somebody in the jails, like this helps.
Chris Adame (36:19.905)
in this situation and again, finding that thing that connects the program to whatever their desire is to learn it is just, critical. And, you know, at a certain point you kind of, you know, I kind of stand back and I'm like, you're right. That does, yeah, it could help in the hospital. You're right. And like you said, like we were talking about earlier, you know, it helps me understand now when I go to my next class and I start that conversation, that in brief, you know, Hey, if you do X, Y, and Z, this could help you in these ways.
and now we're getting to those barriers a lot.
Jeremy (36:53.058)
Hmm. So you said you started training in the program in 2007. Here we are at 17 years later. How has it changed?
Chris Adame (37:04.545)
Hmm.
Jeremy (37:04.898)
Has it changed?
Chris Adame (37:07.403)
it's definitely changed. It's definitely changed. And I'd say one of the biggest ways, great question, one of the biggest ways is part of the delivery of what the intent is. And to kind of put it in perspective as best I can, it was created in 1995 by Matt Larson and kind of rolled out to the floor slowly, trained the trainer program.
2007, like I said, I didn't have any of the formal training, but I understood it was really designed for the battlefield and really designed for, you when you can't employ those weapons, you know, very, very combat related. And it was the army as a whole was very combat oriented. And
To say that it was a different approach is probably the most politically correct response, but a lot more aggression, a lot more aggression. And so I talked to a lot of trainers or folks who've been through the program. And another reason why a lot of the students who I get were turned off at some point was they went through in those earlier days or least in relative to me. And...
the last day, the culminating event, the thing that made it real was called the clinch drill. And the clinch drill is where you go from projectile range into the clinch. And, you know, basically closing the distance, finished the fight. And it was, that was the big deal. That was the, you know, hey, you did it, you know, moment. And what they would do is they would bring people in who were certified at the next level.
to perform as strikers, right? And so those folks would, you know, maybe try to get their get back from when they were going through the drill or, you know, you know, maybe they were just some rough and tough, you know, boss small dunes, I don't know. And they would be trying to take heads off and, know, concussing people, breaking noses, fracturing orbal bones, you know, you name it. And, you know, that would be your, hey, you made it through combatives, you know, but now you can't get back to the actual
Chris Adame (39:29.771)
fight the actual fight for weeks, months at a time because you were injured. And again, another reason why commanders were rightfully so like hesitant of really supporting this program because if we're going to deploy in a couple of weeks or months or whatnot, I can't have people who are hurt because of combatives. Right. And so over the years, I don't know when it changed.
But my instructor for the master trainer course was the branch chief of the program at the time. And was his, basically he was retiring, his last hurrah, Tim Ferriss, loved the guy. And we were the only two E7s in the class. It was an MTT mobile training team at Fort Campbell, Kentucky. And so basically that means
They brought their trainers out to a central location versus us going to them. and so this was his last hurrah, if you would. And we spent a lot of time as the only two senior non-commissioned officers, really talking about the program. And one of the things that changed was the, the, the thing that was the culminating event, the clinch drill was now done on the second day. And it was no longer the culminating event because the training value isn't getting punched in the face, right?
Jeremy (40:48.13)
Mmm.
Chris Adame (40:55.773)
The training value is building the confidence to be able to progress and understand that these skill sets.
Jeremy (41:02.466)
So that brought the intensity down, didn't it?
Chris Adame (41:06.815)
That's the requirement.
Jeremy (41:07.286)
because it's not the culminating event, people didn't feel like they had to be.
Chris Adame (41:11.091)
No, it didn't. What that was, the brief to the instructor, right? As the master trainer, it is my responsibility to make sure that on day two, you're not done. You know, like you can keep going, right? And understanding what are the implications of you going through these drills, right? It's not to see how tough you are. It's not to put you through the wringer. It's to help you build the confidence to finish the fight, right? If you're afraid to get punched because you got punched so hard,
that you're broken bones or all that kind of stuff, you're not gonna wanna finish the fight. You're not gonna put your head in there. You're not gonna feel safe. It's counterproductive, right? And so the program massively flipped in that sense. And we take it back to the new culminating event, which is what is the tactical application? The tactical application is the reactive contact drill, which is now the culminating event, which is we get in our blower suits, right? Our protective suits.
Jeremy (41:49.282)
counterproductive. Yeah.
Chris Adame (42:09.745)
you're in, you know, your full kit and you've got a dummy rifle, you know, you're basically set up as if you were going on a patrol, right? And the, know, you have three combatants and you know, the instructor is going to point at one of the combatants and the combatants going to rush you and that combatant, once they rush you, it's your job to start employing some of the, I don't know how many techniques, but 50 plus techniques to, you know, gain dominant body position and finish the fight. Right.
And if, and if, that means that you control the distance, you know, you, you, you create the space and employ your primary weapon and it's a bang bang kind of situation, you win, you know, move on to the next thing because that's the actual thing we want to see. And so, you know, that's, that's part of the brief is this isn't, you know, you've gone through all this training, you've gone through all these rounds, you know, you, you've practiced these techniques, but understand that at the end of the day,
This whole program is designed for you to survive in a combat situation, right? So we're training as we fight. so if, you know, we teach from very well, the option number one is create space. Why are you creating space to employ your primary weapon? Right? If you're, if you're doing the, if you, if you can't deploy your primary weapon, you maintain the space, you hold them right there, and then you use your secondary weapon, right? Whether that's a knife or a sidearm. And if, if all else fails and you have to grapple,
Jeremy (43:11.756)
Yeah.
Make sense.
Chris Adame (43:36.437)
You have the techniques to grapple, to gain the dominant body position and finish the fight, whether it's through a submission, you know, breaking a bone or bringing somebody to lose consciousness. Right. So we, we helped them understand that that's the order of operation. That's your PEMDAS. Right. And so if you can finish the fight, you know, depending on the situation, if you can finish the fight without, you know, locking in an arm bar, good, you know, great. But, you know, so the intensity
Jeremy (43:53.623)
Mmm.
Chris Adame (44:06.793)
is not the focus. You get those during the rounds, right? But the culminating events are, do you employ these in a way that's gonna ensure you and your team get.
Jeremy (44:17.652)
Hmm. And that's such a, such a powerful conclusion, right? It's one of the things that I think a lot of martial arts schools, when we teach our self-defense curriculum, we know that that is the goal, right? That, that ourselves, our families, the people that we love that are with us can go home as safely as possible, right? But we so rarely spend the time on those things, right? If we, if we, if we took a standard
martial arts curriculum, what should be the number one physical skill that we train? Running. Right? If we look at it purely from a self-defense perspective, right? Running should be the thing we spend the most time on because it is the most effective de-escalation technique that we have once we get beyond words. But of course, running is not sexy. Right? Like, I'm sure, you know, a lot of the guys you served with aren't thrilled about PT days.
Chris Adame (45:17.921)
Yeah.
Jeremy (45:18.38)
Right? And it's something that when I work my curriculum in my school, it's how do I work in the conditioning stuff in a way that, you know, they're not, they're not exhausted. They can still go to work the next day, but they're still making progress, but they don't hate it. Right? Like it's, it's a balancing act.
Chris Adame (45:36.797)
It's wild that you bring that up because for years I wondered why we run so much in the Army. And I know that that isn't the Army's answer for it, but I like it. Right? Like it's the conditioning piece. It's the quickest way to de-escalation. But the conditioning, all of it, I think is a, it's a mental thing, right? Because running is not the funnest thing for me.
Jeremy (46:05.129)
No, it is not enjoyable.
Chris Adame (46:06.629)
No, it's not enjoyable, right? I'm privileged to be able to do it, but you know, it's not necessarily enjoyable. But I think that same could be said is, you know, there are plenty of people who would rather run than do combatives. And I think at the end of the day, one of the things I really wanted to touch on when it comes to combat is the mentality and what it's done for how I approach problems. And the defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy.
Jeremy (46:28.322)
Hmm.
Jeremy (46:35.549)
Can you say that again?
Chris Adame (46:36.929)
defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy. And so Tim and I, you know, I remember sitting down and kind of regurgitating the thoughts I had about combatants because, you know, I didn't want to get like, you know, too big of a head as to what it meant to be a master trainer, right? And I'm like, yeah, you know, I still don't know, you know, you know, I know I'm not some type of badass or anything like that. I don't know if I can say that, excuse me. But
He looked at me and he like, know, really like into the depths of my soul, he goes, basic combat is teaches you how to survive. Tactical combat is teaches you how to fight and master combat is you're a badass. And I thought about that and he's like, you know, and he went on to say that.
Jeremy (47:22.882)
Mmm.
Chris Adame (47:29.505)
And he said it, he would say this all the time, but he just kept saying, the defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy. He said, do you know what that means? And I was like, yeah, you we gotta be willing to fight. He goes, it doesn't matter what that fight is. It doesn't matter if it's a finance situation. It doesn't matter if it's a relationship situation, if it's a work situation. You have to be willing to close the distance with you and the problem.
whatever that challenge is, you have to face it head on in order to overcome it. He goes, that's what that means. And that's what this course is about. And it changed the way that I approached, know, the way I do my jobs, the way I talk to people, the way I just, I maneuver through life because if I'm ever challenged by something, I have to think about the feelings about people who don't like running, right? You don't like running because it's uncomfortable.
So you need to get comfortable running. You don't like fighting because you don't, you know, or you don't, you're not comfortable in it. So you probably need to do it more. I mean.
Jeremy (48:31.714)
People shouldn't like fighting.
They shouldn't like it. It should be a thing that you are willing to do if you have to, right? And yeah, you can enjoy the training part of it. I love training. I love sparring. But I never want to get in a fight.
Chris Adame (48:52.833)
100%. 100%. And I think the interesting thing about that is the more I'm around people who do fight, you know, like who have been, you know, either competing for years or whatnot, or, know, whatever their backgrounds are, the more I realized that, you know, those people have significantly less fight stories.
You know, it's because it again, it's a lot. It's a matter of control. It's a matter of resilience. It's a matter of understanding. What is the implication of a fight? Right. Like if you are on the street and somebody else is on the street and we have a fight, the likelihood that they're thinking about going home that day versus you going home that day, it's it's it's innate. Right. And so now you two have to have a mutual agreement that one of you is willing to not come home that day. And that's a wild thing to,
have a issue over a parking spot or something about, you and so a lot of the folks I know who really, really fight or do it in a professional sense or, you know, even an amateur, you know, there's just significantly less instances of them fighting. There's a lot more emotional control and there's a lot more just appreciation for what it means to engage in combat.
Jeremy (50:09.922)
I find the psychology of fighting and especially the psychology that leads up to that first instance of violence in a fight fascinating. You brought up Tony Blower and I love that you referred to the high gear suits as Blower suits. I don't know how often he listens to the show. He's been on a few times, but shout out to Tony. And I'm sure he would love hearing that, that you guys are referring to them as Blower suits. don't know if you know who he is and the work that he's done.
Chris Adame (50:36.417)
No, I'm fascinated.
Jeremy (50:40.522)
Yeah, yeah. So those suits that you're talking about, the big black, they articulate well. Those are his company. They're called high gear suits, but he is the one that developed that suit because there was nothing else out there that articulated as well. And he's, he's from California. You should, you should look him up. He's a great, great dude. And he came on the show early. I think his first appearance was like in the first hundred episodes and
Chris Adame (50:57.482)
I will.
Jeremy (51:07.668)
He also is obsessed with the psychology of violence and what has to happen. And it would not surprise me if some of the things that he pioneered have worked their way into the program that you're teaching. know, ideas of, and know, stuff that a lot of schools that I know, including my own, have incorporated, you know, the strength of angles bigger than 90 degrees and his big push outside 90 fingers splayed, right?
You know, this is, am I, am I prepared for a fight or am I trying to deescalate? Right? I'm both depending on what's happening, know, stuff like that came from Tony and he's just a really good dude.
Chris Adame (51:41.771)
Mm-hmm.
Chris Adame (51:48.586)
I definitely will have to look him up.
Jeremy (51:50.37)
Yeah, yeah. But I want to talk about you have some context being that you're training in civilian combat as well. You mentioned you've been doing jujitsu for about a year. And I don't know if you have other non military martial arts experience. But one of the things that I always talk to guests about when we have someone on who does something that we haven't heard a lot about before, right? Like,
and especially with what you're learning, your teaching, it's for a very different reason. The why for soldiers is very different than my why when I step in and I bow, right? it's a, well, for me, it's a laundry list of reasons. And one of them is I want to make sure that I can go home if the need arises. I would imagine that if we made a list for the typical soldier, it's, you know, the top 10 reasons one through nine are
to make sure they can go home and maybe there's a different number 10 down there, right? So what do you find that you're able to bring into your jujitsu training that maybe others that are training don't have? And maybe what do they have because their mindset is different than yours that you're finding you're learning from.
Chris Adame (53:12.447)
Yeah, great, great call out. I think the immediate thing that I would say I bring to the mats, and hopefully my professors would agree, is a instructor presence, right? Because I do this in a different capacity, but I still teach and I enjoy teaching. I don't shy away from teaching because I don't shy away from learning. And so,
being on the mats and you know, like I have a training partner currently who we totally respect each other, love each other, but it's hard for us to drill together because you know, he's like, you know, drill, you know, as many times, right? Drill, drill, drill. And I'm like, I want to understand the mechanics. I want to, you know, and so like our styles clash in that sense. But, know, like he's got, I think a very effective approach, which is you do it until you get it right. And then you keep doing it.
which I think is highly valuable. And I think for, you know, on my end, it's, I want to be able to have the technical aspect of it down because on one side, a lot of the techniques that we teach in combattas are based off of Gracie fighting systems. So I'm familiar, but there's a, just a, a vast difference in the level of detail. And so that helps me be a better instructor when I do my thing. Right. But on the other side of that,
what I'm bringing is I'm willing to say, okay, now I understand this technique as the professor intends it to be understood and I can go help with the kids class and I can go grab the new guys who are signing up and help them understand the basics of a technique or whatnot. And so it's almost, I would again hope, I don't know, that what I'm bringing is just the leadership.
on the mats that I would have as an instructor with respect to the fact that I'm not the guy, right? I understand hierarchy too. But, also safe training, right? I think when we talk about the things that are similar, when I think about the people who've been training for a long time, they know what safe training looks and feels like. But maybe articulating it isn't the strong point because they don't have to articulate it.
Chris Adame (55:36.671)
Right. whereas I have to articulate safe training as a principle of the courses. And so when we're on the mats together and we get somebody else, it's, it's like, Hey, if that's so, if that, that person isn't training safely, like we have to, you know, challenge them to understand what that means. And so I often challenge my peers and know, jujitsu to, instead of kind of like looking at that person and saying, you know, they're not safe. don't want to, I don't want to drill with them and saying, I'm more experienced.
I have the opportunity to go and help this person along in their journey and thereby help myself as well.
Jeremy (56:12.64)
Hmm. Okay. Right on.
If people want to reach you, how would they? Socials, emails, and anything like that that you can share.
Chris Adame (56:25.503)
Yeah, I'm Adam plus E or Adam period plus period E on Instagram. You know, I'm on global for any military, you know, folks who want to reach out and, you know, learn more about combatives or or whatnot, especially for those in the Reserve National Guard. We're trying to figure out ways to, you know, really bring the fight to the reserve component. And the last year we did a class.
that consisted of National Guard, active duty and reserve soldiers. We're trying to really grow that program. I don't know of anybody else doing it, but my unit is willing to put it up. I think generally we just need the interest. But yeah, mean, Adam plus C on Instagram where I kind of document a little bit of my military journey, some of my personal stuff and my jujitsu journey as well.
Jeremy (56:59.301)
cool.
Jeremy (57:06.913)
Nice.
Chris Adame (57:20.863)
And so yeah, reach out. I'd love for people to reach out. I'd be interested and see if they do.
Jeremy (57:23.468)
Thanks.
I'm going have you close this up in a minute. I'll let you give the final.
speech, if you will, but to the audience, remember whistlekickmartialartsradio.com is the place to go for this and every other episode we've done, know, we'll link Chris's socials and, you know, we do transcripts and all kinds of other great stuff over there. And remember also whistlekick.com is the place to go for all the things that we do from apparel to protective equipment to the book division, all the things that we do to support you, the traditional martial artists of the world. We are here to connect, educate and entertain.
every single one of you and Chris I want to thank you for your service I want to thank you not just for coming on the show but you know all the things that you do military folks have a special place in my heart as I know many in our industry do because we know how we know how hard we work
Jeremy (58:21.13)
in a safe environment, right? And you're all out there and your safety is far less guaranteed than ours. So I think that in the martial arts world, we have a different appreciation than most civilians. I wanna make sure I mentioned that, but you're welcome. Thank you. But please close us up. What do you want the audience to think about or do or whatever after hearing from you today?
Chris Adame (58:46.997)
Yeah, I just want to say thank you for having me on. It's truly an honor for anybody to be interested in what I'm saying, let alone about the Modern Army Combatants Program. It's an immensely important program, right? Because the defining characteristic of a warrior is the willingness to close with the enemy. And so whatever that enemy may be, have the courage, the confidence, the resiliency to go after it, to fail, but to fight, and eventually you will win.
And so, you if I leave you with anything, it's that and go train.
Jeremy (59:23.69)
I said, we'll end up cutting it there. Man, this was great. This was great. I don't know if you're always this here. I'm going to push this aside. I've been staring at the camera. Now I can actually look at your face. I don't know if you function this well this early all the time, man, but damn, that was great.
Chris Adame (59:36.195)
Yeah, for sure. It's hard.
Chris Adame (59:43.194)
Thank you. I mean, I just hope it was engaging. mean, I
Jeremy (59:45.844)
It was, it was, you know, here we are, we're coming up on episode 1000. So, so to, so one of the things I love is, is you're, you're to my knowledge, the first.
Chris Adame (59:51.507)
I know.
Jeremy (01:00:03.754)
MacP practitioner instructor that we've had on the show. We've had, I we've had people come on that teach, you know, weird Vietnamese martial arts and all sorts of things that most people have never heard of. And I think that's awesome because, you know, as much as I love everything.
Jeremy (01:00:24.778)
It's rare with this much content to get something that's unique, right? Everybody's story is unique, but everybody's story is also very similar. it's that juxtaposition that I absolutely love, right? know, martial arts, however it is trained, makes us better. You know, I think almost everybody would agree with that. But when we get to have a whole different...
framework from within that personal growth can occur. That's cool. Because then the more of that we do, the more people go, maybe I shouldn't, you know, as a karate person, be a dick about taekwondo people or whatever, right? Like, because that that happens and it pisses me off. You know, I don't know, I don't know if you guys argue about whether Mac P or MicMap is is better.
Chris Adame (01:01:05.033)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Chris Adame (01:01:14.399)
No, so in the reserve, well, it's interesting, right? Because again, as a reserve soldier, we're not in proximity to a lot of other known military assets, right? Like there's pockets, but additionally with the reserve is...
I find that folks aren't as open with their service because they're not connected to the organizations, right? The reserve is, at least in my experience, you have like the army and what the army does and like way down the line somewhere, the reserve, right? But I've been on active duty and I understand that the things that we do in the reserve are incredibly important to the active duty mission and vice versa. And so,
Jeremy (01:01:52.29)
Mmm.
Jeremy (01:02:03.49)
Is that because people have to keep a foot in each world?
Chris Adame (01:02:08.693)
I think it's a bit of that, but I also, it's 100 % leadership, right? 100 % leadership. Because if leadership doesn't emphasize, I'll give you an example. If leadership doesn't make the effort to connect the reserve efforts to what the Army is doing, then soldiers who don't know, won't know. You just, you can't, right? And so for instance, we have the Army 250th anniversary coming up, right? And...
I recognized there was a gap between our connection to the organization and I proposed to my commander, why don't we do a 250 mile ruck slash run challenge to commemorate the 250th Army birthday? And part of it is a morale thing. Part of it is challenging people to do things they don't like, like run, including me. I'm at like 40 miles, don't judge me. But the fact that the map...
Jeremy (01:03:02.946)
40 miles, that's still 40 miles is a lot dude. Most people don't even do 7000 steps a day. 4000 I'm sorry, the average in the mid America is 4000 steps a day.
Chris Adame (01:03:05.813)
We're on it though.
That's, no, you're right, you know, but.
Chris Adame (01:03:13.505)
That's wild because if I'm in the office, that's about it, right? But the idea was, you know, that we have to make that connection because if we don't, soldiers don't know why they're doing it, especially in the reserve because you only do it for two days, four days out of a month, right? And so when it comes to like, you know, what's better, who's better, we don't even have, don't have that kind of, I don't want to say that pride, but there's not that platform to even do it, it feels like, right?
But I do follow the Marines combatants program. don't know what they call it. I do follow Instagram and I love it. They get a lot of interaction and it looks fun and they have a belt system and all this kind of stuff. And I'm sure that's great. It's a lot more structured, a lot of focus, but there's the biggest difference between the two branches is the size. And kind of like you were saying, when it comes to the class size or in jujitsu or not jujitsu, but in your classes,
So much, only so much emphasis or investment can be put into each individual when the class is larger. And in the Army, just, you know, it's much larger. So we can't put that kind of focus on those things.
Jeremy (01:04:33.856)
Yeah, I don't think I have anything else to say. This was great. You got wheels turning. I don't know if you can see it in my face, but it's not every episode gets wheels turning for me. And I really appreciate when they do because selfishly, this is why I keep doing this show is because I learn. I learn tremendously. And as an example, my martial arts curriculum at my school, we have 25 techniques in five forms. That's it.
because of influence like the Marine Corps program and other combatives, Krav Maga, right? Like if you've got a week to teach people, you're teaching them only the stuff that they absolutely need. You're not getting to 100 % effectiveness. You're the 80-20 rule, right? But it's more than 80%. It's the, what are the techniques that we can teach them that 95 % of the time, this is all they need? Because
I realized, and it came from an episode of this show, the more I asked students to learn, the less well they would know any of it. So why would I, why would I dilute out, defending against a hook punch or how to throw a straight for, for the sake of a jump spinning crescent kick, right? Like those are fun. Those are cool. I'll teach them that like in the future if they want to, but we're going to spend the time drilling on.
Chris Adame (01:05:41.525)
Yes.
Jeremy (01:06:02.474)
a straight punch and an overhead block and them very simple things. And it's working. My students progress rapidly in, I'm sure a similar way to, you know, 40 hours. That's a week, right? To be able to turn somebody out in a week and have faith that if push comes to shove, they have an enhanced chance of survival. You've got to be really confident in that material. And that's awesome.
Chris Adame (01:06:14.273)
That's a week.
Chris Adame (01:06:27.167)
Yeah, you know, it's, and that goes to a point that, you know, to your point, the, the black belt who was in the class, he brought up, said, you know, he was like, kind of, you know, again, as a, as a facilitator, I'm looking around the class and I'm, you know, he's got the cauliflower ear, you know, and he's kind of looking at me and I'm like, I wonder, he's been in some stuff. he was an MMA fighter. Yeah, you know, and so I'm thinking, okay, I can, I can see the signs.
Jeremy (01:06:45.152)
That's a dude that's been in some stuff. When the ears look like that, you don't mess with somebody.
Chris Adame (01:06:54.663)
I want his feedback, right? Because he's kind of quiet dude, very humble, very respectful. And I was like, you know, Hey, so what are your thoughts? And he goes,
the rapidity that we go from zero to being able to close the distance.
is incredibly impressive because what he teaches is more the combat focused, self-defense focused techniques in his courses. he's he's like, blower suit incorporation is something I want to look into and or high gear, right? It is something that he wants to look into, but also just the fact that the drills that we do, you you have about four hours of preparing to get punched in the face. And for many people, it's the first time.
you know, and I can imagine that school, you know, but that's all we're focusing on, you know, how to achieve the clinch and you know, how to protect yourself when going in for the clinch, right? Or when closing the distance. And he's like, I want to do that in my course. And that was probably all of the things that I've ever gotten back as far as feedback from students or instructors or anybody. That was probably the highest praise is to have somebody who has been there, done it and does it to look at something that we're presenting and saying, this is effective.
where you presented it was effective and I want to do that. So yeah, I mean, it's, you know, the, time is a, is is a really interesting thing because you look at it in one way. You're like, that's a lot, but also it's like, that's a lot of one thing and that's, that's good.
Jeremy (01:08:27.436)
Yeah. Yeah, it's repetition, right? You know, one of the things I talk about with my students is you'll never be able to think fast enough. This is not a question of think. This is not a question of me giving you a variety of tools. And then in the moment, you being able to sit and go, hmm, which one of those things that Jeremy taught me is the right one to do right now? Because it doesn't work. But our central nervous system understands
Survival it's the thing that we have that keeps us alive So my obsession in in martial arts education right now is how do we hijack those primal instincts in a way that again? I learned in this concept originally from Tony this idea that if I'm here, right? I can I can back you away, but I can also be here and This lead hand BAM, right? It's right there. You know fingers are open. So maybe I'm fingertip in the eye and
Chris Adame (01:08:58.208)
Yes.
Jeremy (01:09:26.302)
It doesn't take a lot of training to become comfortable with that and realize how effective that is. And so we actually, we do something dramatically different than most schools. And I'm ahead of the curve on this. not, I absolutely did not pioneer this, but I've probably been one of the loudest voices in the industry.
most of our free-form training or sparring is done insanely slow.
because people don't retain information unless they feel safe. Unless they feel, unless they're in a parasympathetic state, their brain is not wiring new patterns. And so once in a while we'll escalate and they see, I know how to do this. Yeah, yeah. Because we've drilled it a million times slowly and you feel safe doing it.
and it just becomes automatic. The hand comes in and they just do this. But instead of that with freeze, I've taught them one, two or one, two, right? So it becomes.
Jeremy (01:10:30.772)
it becomes efficient. But if I had that parameter of one week, could I do that? That's where some of the wheels are turning for me. I don't think I could spend the time doing that. But where is that threshold? Because I'm sure most of the time, actually I'm guessing most of the time when you guys are training, it's not full tilt.
Chris Adame (01:10:53.761)
Absolutely not. No, it's, it's, I couldn't, I couldn't tell you a time in combat is where I will say, all right guys, go 100%. There's, there's, there's, there's never a time. What we, what we, I think that's kind of, it's something that's generally understood. So maybe I'll use that, but I tell people, Hey, look, we're, know, we're not going all out, you know,
Jeremy (01:11:08.5)
Is that how you express it is percentage?
Chris Adame (01:11:23.167)
I don't like percentages because like we don't have like a little battery pack, you know, so I, I'm, I'm, I'm very literal, you know, so to, you know, probably to a fault, but, what I'll express is, know, like what we're doing, right. And especially if you have either more skill size, speed, whatever the, like, if you're out matching the person, like it's going to do. And again, I, I really understood this more after jujitsu. but like, you're going to do less good for both of you by just dominating the fight.
Jeremy (01:11:45.73)
Mm.
Chris Adame (01:11:51.689)
You know, and so it's oftentimes if you're outmatched and we don't genders size doesn't matter. You're getting your partner, you're rotating and you're going to work on these techniques. likewise, focus on executing the technique. so kind of like, it's not necessarily a speed thing, but we kind of crawl, walk, run. That's how most military training is, is, is phased. And so, you know, like we'll have, you know, that person say, Hey, you know,
Jeremy (01:12:15.318)
Makes sense.
Chris Adame (01:12:21.161)
This doesn't work. Good. Don't use it. You know, like based on your body type, body, you know, mechanics, whatnot, like this may not work. That's fine. But now you know. And so then we get into that more, you know, competitive space. Hey, you're going to win. You're not going to hurt each other, right? Our training partners need to be able to go home tomorrow. Right. And so when they do that, it's, you know, tap early, tap all those different principles are still there. But it's, it's such a, a
controlled aggression. And I think for the hardest part is not getting people to slow down. It's getting people to tap in.
Jeremy (01:12:58.21)
Hmm.
Chris Adame (01:12:59.349)
Because again, if people haven't done this, now they're expected to do this like with intensity. It's the, again, I'll just go back to the clinch drill or achieving the clinch option three. We go from, you've never done this before to you're going to get punched in the face tomorrow if you don't guard your face and apply these techniques. And so we have a thing before that called the slap drill.
And in the slap drill, I will demonstrate either myself will get demonstrated on or I'll demonstrate on my assistant instructor and I'll be like, Hey, we're going to slap each other. Right. Because getting punched in the face is a self correcting process. Right. It happens once you're going, you know, like, and so we'll, we'll actually, know, we won't go full tilt, but we're saying, don't, don't, you know, people do this. And it's like, no, we're not, we're not penny padding because your partner won't learn from that.
Jeremy (01:13:44.157)
Yes.
Chris Adame (01:13:56.851)
If you, if you wake them up, you give them a nice little, you know, smack across the face, they will understand my hand needs to go right here. I need to be looking down, you know, like it changes the dynamic. so finding, getting people to just be okay with putting hands and feet on people is probably that, that first barrier. Once they're on board with learning.
Jeremy (01:14:13.58)
Hmm.
Jeremy (01:14:19.223)
Yeah, it's, it's fascinating to me how similar these are our philosophies are. I assume there's no opportunity for me as a civilian to go through this program. There is. How would I do that?
Chris Adame (01:14:32.929)
There is 100%. I can certify. So a master trainer can certify anybody as long as I believe it's an 06 signs off on it. And so if you have a master trainer in the guard or if there's a reserve unit around there with a master trainer, they can put a class together. Likewise, we could, maybe you and I could figure something out if you're willing to travel and of course spend a week in California.
We're not in the great parts of California too. Like we're like in the middle. but, I would, I would gladly train anybody who comes through. and I've been hopefully a master trainer would too, but, yeah, it's, it's like, I wanted, I would like to, do this for women, children. Like it doesn't, the certification is just saying that, you know, you've gone through the techniques and passed, but I've had civilians in my, in my,
civilians in my master trainer course because they had gone through the previous two courses prior to.
Jeremy (01:15:37.066)
Okay. All right. That opens my mind up on some things. Cool. And thank you. Yeah. Yeah. It's, you know, obviously the time is significant as it should be, but knowing that it's not gate kept exclusively to soldiers is good stuff.