Episode 639 - How to Fight Jean-Claude Van Damme as Kurt Sloane in Kickboxer (1989)
In this episode, Jeremy and co-host Andrew Adams give us a new episode of How To Fight and they are joined by Dr. Jean Kanokogi.
How to Fight Jean-Claude Van Damme as Kurt Sloane in Kickboxer (1989) - Episode 639
The 1989 film Kickboxer is the first installment to the Kickboxer series of movies and it’s starred by Jean-Claude Van Damme. Kurt Sloane (Jean-Claude Van Damme) is the younger brother and cornerman of Eric Sloane (Dennis Alexio), the United States kickboxing world champion. After another successful title defense, Eric is enticed by the media to compete in Thailand, where kickboxing was started, to further establish his legacy.
In this episode, Jeremy, Andrew, and Dr. Jean Kanokogi discuss how are they going to fight Kurt Sloane by analyzing his stance, style, and moves. Listen and join this fun conversation!
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome back to another Whistlekick episode of How to Fight? This time its “How to Fight Kurt Sloane” played by Jean Claude Van Damme in the classic kick boxer. And of course, I'm joined by Andrew but also past guest, Episode 594 Dr. Jean Kanokogi. Thanks for coming back.
Jean Kanokogi:
Hey, thanks for having me back. This is fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Of course. Of course. You know, it's funny when we, when Andrew and I started talking about the show in this format, we did one as a test, and it went pretty well. And then we started brainstorming. And I said, you know, who I think would be a ton of fun to have on to do this, but I don't know if she would do it, is you and then Andrew, and he sent me this email, and I don't remember the exact text of the email, Andrew, but it was basically Oh, my god, she's so in.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I Jean, I will never forget getting your email. When I sent it off to you. You're like, I would love to do this. I do it anyway, when I watch TV, how I would fight these people. So it was perfect.
Jean Kanokogi:
It's true, because whether it be law enforcement shows that I'm screaming at the TV, you know, most people yell at the TV during football and baseball games. I yell at the TV like, no, you cannot. If you step that way, you're going to get thrown or no, you're you know, you can't go in that door and who goes into a scary house and says hello. So I'm constantly yelling at the TV. So when you guys invited me to do this, I said, wow! This is fun.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've had a really good time with the audience likes it. And you know, based on the feedback, we're doing a pretty good job. I haven't received any, you know, death threats. Andrew?
Andrew Adams:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No death threats?
Andrew Adams:
Not yet. Not yet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Okay. So we should be good. We should we should be good. Of course. I think this is would you say? I'm curious what both of you think? Would you say that this is Van Damme seminal role? Or is it Blood sport?
Jean Kanokogi:
I think this is what gave Van Damme even more of his stardom. I think his as we speak but I think his signature split was felt around the world.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh my God!
Jean Kanokogi:
So I think this.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
Define it definitely didn't not did not define his acting skills. But I love the cinematography of going back and forth when he was really slender to being super built in the same shot. So it but it highlighted a lot of his martial arts skills. I mean, the stuff that he exhibited a lot of it you just can't learn overnight. And then of course, you know, the camera action kicking somebody slapping somebody across the face with your foot. Probably not easy to do with one leg.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I don't know that this was a seminal role. For me, I think it was Blood sport, which he made before he made kick boxer. Blood sport came out first.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. By about a year.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like the next movie he did for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
And he did the split in both of them, right. I mean, that's his thing. Like, he's got to show that in every movie, he does whether its Blood sport, Kick box, or Cyborg, it doesn't matter. Like they all had it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's got to do a split. He's got to try to show his butt.
Andrew Adams:
Oh, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Which he did a great job of that in this one? You know, anybody, you know, not a lot of people can pull off a loincloth. He did all right.
Jean Kanokogi:
He.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He did all right.
Jean Kanokogi:
Well, since we're going there, everybody thought I when I remember when I was a kid watching this, what a handsome guy. Like he was just so handsome, very brooding, and very rightful, you know, he stood up for the girl and the damsel in distress. He wasn't hansy like his, like his 80s looking brother. So his he wasn't articulate but not we don't look at these movies to see a fine actor. We look at these movies for his martial arts. So this and all his other movies. This is what really gave Van Damme his name that it's such a recognizable name, even years later.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure, sure. And the split is so iconic. There was the, what was the truck commercial?
Jean Kanokogi:
Oh, yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was at the Super Bowl a few years ago.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And a lot of people don't know that the character of Johnny Cage and the Mortal Kombat. Video games was modeled on Van Damme.
Andrew Adams:
I didn't know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He has. He has a movement. One of the characters movements is literally to drop into a split and punch in the groin. Where does that come from? It comes from this film.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
So how many guys do you think?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, did he do in Blood sport?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, it was an upper cut.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Is it an upper cut in this one? It's a straight punch. If I remember in the game, it's a straight punch.
Jean Kanokogi:
So how many guys do you think in the 90s tried this split and are still hurting.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Um, I'm, well, I, one of my friends in high school, definitely was spending time doing splits and splits on chairs. And it was 100% response to these films.
Jean Kanokogi:
And I can tell you in our Dojo, probably in response to these films, I think my parents watched it. And all of a sudden, we're stretching and we're sitting down and you have your partner sitting in front of you with your let your legs are spread, and your partner's in front of you with their heels into your inner part of your knee pulling you forward, and pretty much trying to do what they did in the movie. And I couldn't understand I understand that be limber in Judo. But I think the split was probably the influence for that training technique where I didn't see the benefit of it. But I prided myself where I couldn't get close, but not there. Now, it wouldn't be the split now it'd be the stuck, because I'd be stuck.
Andrew Adams:
I mean, I watched the movie and I get I feel pain just watching it when he does it. So.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Well, you should. Because there's something very instinctive and how, how awful a training methodology that is, you know, don't tie your feet to ropes and pulleys and crank your legs in the hope that it's going to work out because it's not.
Jean Kanokogi:
You know, the training methodologies evolved so much over the years. Banging your head against the wall to make your forehead strong, or was probably something that people did. And even when I was training on the Judo Team, years and years ago, our training methodologies are nothing now everything is so scientific. But back then it was just so organic. Well try it you know, if it hurts, or if you have your shoulder pops out, you don't need EMTs your Sensei just pops it right back in.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And there was an element of this is what we've always done. Traditional training is better. And if it hurts, it's probably doing the right thing.
Jean Kanokogi:
That's true. No pain, no gain. Now, it's almost no pain your brain because.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Jean Kanokogi:
You know if something hurts, you know, there's a difference between uncomfortable and hurt. So if something is uncomfortable, you can push through it. You can you know, it's uncomfortable for me to do a burpee. It's very uncomfortable. I almost am allergic to doing burpees. But you push through it, it doesn't hurt. It's uncomfortable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
But if you're in an arm lock, and you're trying to tap out because it truly hurts and you're going to have your arm broken. That's the next step. That's what you do. That hurts.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Right. Okay. Is there anything about the movie that we should point out anything fun? Any trivia, any memories, anything like that that we should go? Andrew, you often have trivia stuff you want to throw in?
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. So I didn't realize this until I re-watched it because at the time it wasn't something I when I watched this when I was in high school. I was watching it for Van Damme. But the gentleman that played his brother is a legit undisputed heavyweight kickboxing champion.
Jean Kanokogi:
Oh wow!
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, I saw that.
Andrew Adams:
Which I didn't realize until I re-watched it and kind of looked up some things. My wife was like, he moves really good. Is he a real martial artist? And I said I don't know let me look and you know Dennis Alexio was a legit kickboxing champion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, a couple things that I I found in there that were interesting, Van Damme did the choreography.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Which explains a lot. Because there were a lot of there was a lot of Kung Fu in the montages. And a lot of Shotokan in the montage is that I mean, I haven't trained in Muay Thai so I can't say definitively it wasn't, but I don't think it was.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Now it seems to be a, I guess a quick 9:30 or just such a mix of martial arts. I think there may have been one or two Judo throws if I can recall when he was fighting the bullies at the local grocery store or at the bar after he was dancing. So I think there were a couple of Judo throws incorporate in there as well. So I there was everything there was every martial art that you could think of and which is good for the viewer, no matter what time period because you want to see a little bit of everything. You know, if we did just Judo in a fight scene, it wouldn't be as dramatic. But if you've got some kicks and punches and some acrobatics, and then you solidify it with a Judo throw, I think in some of the other movies like Fast and Furious, I think, Ronda Rousey did something and then she followed it with a judo throw and bam, and there was the drama.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
So you have to be able to incorporate a lot of techniques like Van Damme did and I think was great choreography.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, the only the only thing you said Jean, what I would disagree with was you mentioned he was dancing in the bar. And I don't know that you could call when he was doing dancing.
Jean Kanokogi:
Gyrating?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Those two girls were into it.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, but they were. They were actors that were being paid to get into it.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, well, that couldn't be for the time era. I mean.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
He could have been wearing you know, I guess like Zee Kava Ricci pants or something or or his parachute pants or New York, the frig, no gym pants, because that's how the guys were dancing pretty much in that time period. So if that was dancing, then maybe that yeah, it certainly wasn't Patrick Swayze.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If we're going to talk about his attire, can we please mention his somehow combination tank top overalls?
Jean Kanokogi:
I thought he was trying out for Shaun Anna.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Holy cow! They had like adjustable metal buckles like what was how do you even find that?
Andrew Adams:
I was going to say he was incredibly well dressed for his position. Like he was the corner man for his brother, wearing a dress shirt and dress pants. I have never in my life seen a corner man at any fight were anything remotely close to that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No.
Andrew Adams:
And anytime he was out and about he was always dressed. Really, really nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a great point.
Jean Kanokogi:
That's true. He was dressed very nice. Except, like Jeremy said that tank top that I thought he was he was trying out it should have been 12:03. And he and if he had a microphone in his hand, and that's the whole thing. I mean, you if you dress like that no matter what time period you really need to know how to fight.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes. Yes. That's all said. Alright, so let's move on to that part. Let's talk about the how to fight part. We get when is it it's a six minutes in 6:40 or so in. We actually see him move for the first time they were in the park. And his brother's got him holding pads and they're, they're doing some stuff there. You know, let's Jean take it from there. Move forward is far about bounce around if you want. What are we seeing that made you say, ah, here's an opportunity or here's something I want to stay away from?
Jean Kanokogi:
You know, one of the things that I saw is how wrong his brother was in giving him the instruction. They were in the park. His brother said each was telling him each kick had to be the hardest kick ever. And your explosive power you want to save that explosive power for the timing for when you're doing it right. You trait you fight how you train, that's absolutely for sure. And you train how you fight, but you're also sparring and you have to when you're engaging in just sparring, and practicing you certainly don't want to hurt your person. Because what they're doing in just like in Judo, it's a mutual benefit for all. So in judo, we actually thank our opponent for helping us to become stronger and better. I think what the brother was exhibiting was almost like bully like features and Van Damme. What he may be has been conveying is no, this isn't how it's done. You have to have a more subtle approach and then when it's right to strike. So the brother clearly got frustrated with him in the park in that area, or maybe the brother just wanted to keep showing off and maintaining his position of dominance.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I the things I noticed is that which I which surprised me a little bit as it seemed like when I was watching his stances were super open. Like, you know, Wallace fights were the very side stance, right? Very, very narrow. And his team seemed almost head on kind of like and maybe not his upper body so much, but his lower body was a lot more open and forward front facing than I thought it would have been. Certainly I didn't remember being like that. And I was like, that's definitely something that could be exploited a little bit that I don't, I don't think he's going to have the same ability. Because it was so wide front facing. You know, obviously super flexible. We've already talked about that. And the other thing I wrote down I wrote it down. The jump spin kick is his jam like that is he loves that thing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Stay out of the way that foot.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah. You know, with the front facing, it's interesting because we talk about how you derive power. So if you're bladed and given the fact that I'm in law enforcement, the first thing our instinctual went from what we see in movies is that we want to shoot bladed, because we don't want to give the biggest target, we want it we want to can't our body can't our arms. And then I learned in the academy, the weaver stance where you're actually front facing where you have the most power. And even though you're exhibiting a larger target, you have more power, and you're more protected because your vest is clearly facing forward. But that's where your power is derived. So if you blame too much, you're not going to be able to have that power, even if you want to come follow up with that kick. That has to start front facing so that you can start gathering your power to be able to give and execute each technique.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, yeah, if you look at any sport, there is some version of you know what, in in a lot of traditional martial arts, we think of as kind of like a ready stance Futashi kind of a thing. How does sprinter start, you know, their blocks? Yeah, they're, they're down. But when they stand up, it's a bent over, they're loading up their hamstrings, in a similar stance are facing forward. Football players. Pretty much any time you have power, you need both sit both feet, pointing where you need to go. The example of Bill Wallace and being successful is an anomaly. And, you know, he made it work due to circumstance. But he also there's an important element there in that the initiation of motion, every time he throws something, something has to initiate that motion to generate the power. And it's, you know, it's right on my certificate. How does it go? In speed, one can develop power not necessarily empower, can one develop speed. You know, this idea that if you watch if you watch him, it was very much Van Damme, you know, kind of at the beginning, you know, flipping that foot around. And so you know, that strategy, at least is in good company.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
There were a lot of strategies that we're used talk, you know, talking about the front facing, because one of the things that I noticed that Van Damme did is he squared off a lot. And he squared off and he got his muscles revved up kind of like what you were saying, you know, you loading up the hamstrings. He, it looks like he got his posture and his position. It almost made me look like made me think of just like prelude to the Karate Kid. You know, just getting in that position gearing up getting your mindset because your mind is really what's driving your body.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Jean Kanokogi:
And of course, you're you know, with it with the spinning kicks, I mean, it's just where your head goes and where your feet are facing is the direction where you're going. So it all he pulled it all together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He did.
Jean Kanokogi:
It's just that the outfits and the dialogue were entertaining at the least. But the martial arts part was fun.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, Jean you mentioned squaring off against someone which, you know, we're talking right now of like, the direction of our body being square. But the other thing I found interesting, and this certainly is not the only movie he's done this in, but he has a habit of being "Okay, I'll kick you and then you kick me and then I'll kick you the same way and you kick me and then I'll kick you and then you'll kick me and I'll kick you and you'll kick me" 18:44.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's aversion of blocking makes me ill.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. And if I if he got into that situation with me, I wouldn't give him the exact same kick every time because he's going to think that's what I would change it up. If he's, if we're going to get into that trading back and forth. It's not going to be kick coming one of those times, it's going to be something else.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, his aversion to blocking and his it's almost like a choreography where he likes to dance. He likes to do a kick dance. And maybe it's for the dramatics because taking the kick versus blocking the kick and letting the viewer see it follow through. But there are so many people that watch these and try to emulate what they see. As we mentioned earlier with the split, so putting up the blocks would send them a better message saying hey, you know, you don't need to get kicked each time. And also doing the kick for kick. Unless it's a pre-arranged pre agreed fight and clearly it's a movie. You're absolutely right, Andrew changing it up. You know, we have combination techniques in Judo. You have to change it up in boxing, they have those combination techniques. You totally have to change it up. Otherwise it's going to be two people just sitting there slapping the daylights out of each other.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. One of the things that we didn't see much of which I think if this movie was to be remade, we would see far more of.
Andrew Adams:
It was remade.
Andrew Adams:
The leg kicks. What's that?
Andrew Adams:
It was remade.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sort of.
Andrew Adams:
I didn't see the remake.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's not, it's not the same plot.
Andrew Adams:
Okay.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's not the same plot. But we didn't see much in the way of leg kicks. I think Tong Po does like one in the final fight at the beginning, if I remember correctly. And we know from kicking the palm tree, that his legs are not naturally of the caliber that kicking a palm tree is going to be okay. So that suggests to me that he probably be susceptible to leg kicks. So I think that's the first thing that I would put in my column of, you know, stuff that I would want to train to address if I was going to fight him.
Jean Kanokogi:
Especially like kicks. I mean, it will, his kicks are so powerful. So if you take the legs out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
You can defeat somebody that powerful and you know, kicking, like if you kick in the common perennial, the side of the leg, you hit that nerve, you're going to collapse that leg, you get a great shot. And the other thing is when you do a leg kick, and I agree, they did miss a lot of them. It's not as pretty obviously as, as the higher kicks, but they're so effective. Not only can you at least kick to stun, but you can kick butt, it's, it doesn't open you up your legs metal up there, it's hard to grab a leg kick. And if you miss the common perennial, or if you miss the quadriceps area of the large kicking area, and you happen to hit the side of something else. Well, either way it's going to take it's going to take the tree down.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. I noticed that as well. I also wrote down as much as he may have trained elbows. He only used I think I counted two elbows in the entire fight. Every single one of his attacks was what I would call a ranged attack. Right. He used the far extremity that he could, he never had anyone really right up in close to utilize any sort of close combat. So I think that is another thing that he may have, you know, Kurt Sloane may have a bit of a weakness with any sort of enclosed grappling fighting.
Jean Kanokogi:
Well, yeah, I'm sorry. Go ahead, Jeremy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I wanted to point out, he has a hard time with anything when he's not angry. Until he got upset in any circumstance, he was useless. It was almost this like whole conversion, like, ah, now I'm going to actually care and fight back. And you see it like you see it in the bar, not one of those people actually attacked him. He's like drunk and just like a throwing, and they just, they just run up to him, you know, and it felt like the first level of a video game.
Jean Kanokogi:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Like you're trying to figure out the buttons.
Jean Kanokogi:
True. And the other thing is are with the elbows. I got the appearance, I felt that Tong Po was very tall, he looked very tall. Van Damme, by his features, you can tell that he's not as tall. So he was using elbows, it would have probably, even if he got up close, his elbow strikes would have not been in the immediate soft tissue region of like the neck or the face, because he probably wouldn't have been able to reach although it would have been in the lower region where it would probably put in very effective, but I don't think people would want to see him elbowing Tong Po in the groin, and using close quarter strikes to the groin area. So maybe that's why he didn't use so many elbows just because of the height disparity.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. One of the patterns I saw throughout was he's hanging those kicks out there. You know, the aesthetic of that high kick, demonstrating the flexibility. And the whole time, I'm kind of, you know, screaming at the movie, pull your damn kicks back. And then we see in the final fight, that Tong Po starts grabbing his leg, because he's hanging the foot out there. And, you know, it was one of the things that I remember as, as a kid as I was coming up, I would hang my kicks out there, because I wanted them to look good. And then I would spar with people. And they'd grab my leg. Like don't grab my leg. Don't leave your foot out there.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, shoot.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, that's got to be for the aesthetic part, you know, also, when you do throw a kicker punch, as you know, the impact, it will reverberate a little bit longer, the more you maintain that contact. So if you throw a punch and you and you just throw punch that it's kind of a jam, tap retreat, it's not going to have as much impact. But if you do throw a serious punch, and you let it stay there for just another split second, that energy will transfer and it will have a larger impact. But now with that said, he left his kicks out there, not for the impact, they were kind of not in contact any longer if I recall. So this may have been just for showmanship, but from what I understand, and from me teaching strikes, sometimes you have to leave it out there. And that's what my dad taught me, you leave it out there on in full contact. But also be mindful that because your limb is out there, somebody can grab it.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
I think the difference though, is leaving, leaving something in contact for a second and pulling it back, or leaving something there for five seconds, six seconds, seven seconds. Okay, now I'm done. The other thing I noticed Jeremy, you know, you mentioned the leaving something out there. But on the same vein, on the other side, that final fight, there was a whole lot of grabbing, and like looking at the audience, like, Hey, I'm going to punch the guy, like, why didn't you punch him immediately? Like, you're, you realize you're in a fight, right? There was a lot of that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
For sure.
Jean Kanokogi:
I think the reality of the 90s movies added so much drama. I mean, if you think about all the other movies that were out around, then you needed that drama, and almost like you wanted to carry that person around and be like, I'm going to throw him I'm going to throw him and I'm throwing him. You know, it's almost like what was it like the wrestling where you just carry somebody around and twirl them three times and then throw them. So grabbing somebody and looking at the audience for drama. And of course, the person who is going to receive the hit is also standing there like, oh, boy, I guess I'm going to get hit in that time period you know, there is something called an escape.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know that that's a good point. I wonder, you know, and Andrew, we might be able to do an episode on this the influence of professional wrestling, on fight choreography. Because in the early days, cameras weren't fast. They couldn't capture people at full speed, they had to slow things down. They had to make it work with that. And as the technology got better, how much had just stylistically that fight choreography kind of lagged behind? And how do you feel time with drama? When you do dramatic things, like, carry people around? Like, look out at the audience, and I'm going to punch him.
Jean Kanokogi:
I don't think that if you during competition in the past you guys, before you kick somebody or executed a technique, I don't think you looked at the audience. I can tell you in the dynamic of a Judo fight, I have never I never looked at the audience only with my mom when she was coaching me a couple of times, just to see what the heck she was saying and whatever strategy she was doing, but it wasn't mid fight. It was maybe when I was fixing my gi and going back to the starting point. Never have I ever gone to execute a throw, get somebody where I'm in haven't been throwing position. Look at the audience almost point to my opponent and then throw them it's either you do it or you're going to get countered.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Maybe something to aspire to.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Kind of like, you know, Babe Ruth calling the whole run? You know, you know, set up, and grab the belt point flip. I don't know.
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you can pull that off, it would be probably make Sports Center.
Jean Kanokogi:
True, you know that I'll contact the current Olympians and see if, if they can do that. At the next world championships. If they wouldn't mind before they're executing a throw or you know, and see if they would just like kind of Showboat a little bit.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. I just look.
Jean Kanokogi:
You know, it's funny, you just triggered a memory, though Showboat. There were these Judo competitor. There were local Judo competitors. And sometimes they would Showboat a little, especially when, say it was a black belt, finding a white belt. You kind of toy with them before the tournament, you know, during the competition, and you know that it wasn't nice, but I've seen that I've seen that happen. And the best is when you see the show boater toying with that white belt in the competition and the white belt is picking that person up and slamming them because that's the whole thing when you Showboat in any type of martial arts competition. It's so disrespectful overall to your opponent to yourself. So when you get picked up and slammed, in which, obviously for movie purposes, this didn't happen. But in reality, just seeing something like that it kind of hits strikes a chord to me saying, Come on, guys, if you want to make it a little bit more realistic, don't do this.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, so I would be looking out for that I would be looking to, you know, if he grabbed on and was like, looking away, well, I'm going to be fighting back, that would have been part of my strategy for sure.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So let's put some of this together. If you were to have, let's say, you, you were coaching you, you know, and you wanted to kind of give some note cards on you know, here's what to watch for, here's what to train for, etc. Jean, what's your summary of your fight strategy for fighting Kurt Sloane.
Jean Kanokogi:
My summary would be, know how his fighting style was. So for instance, perfect example, he leaves his leg up in the air. Well, I'm going to grab that leg and I'm going to throw mochi, Gary, which is an inner leg sweep, because he's going down. And being that he is one of those people that likes to execute something and then freeze and hold it there, I'm hoping he would throw a punch at me, I would get out of the way of the punch, and then his arm would be fully extended. And I would sit myself right into a nice arm bar. So that's one way I would do it. I would also aside from knowing his fighting style, I would visualize me doing those techniques that I just told you, I would visualize his leg kick coming up to my ear and shoulder and doing a block something that he has aversion to doing a block grabbing it stepping out of the way and throwing him with a foot sweep, taking him in a circular motion and getting him down. He doesn't seem like he has amazing skills on the ground. So wrapping myself around him like the shawl and choking him would be an easy target. His neck actually doesn't look as well developed and didn't look as strong all his muscle were in his in his shoulders and in his arms. And there were a couple of scenes where he had 19 inch biceps back down to 14 inch biceps back up to 19 inch biceps. So you realize that, although he has that flexibility, my training would be to really visualize and know where his vulnerabilities were, I would not do kick for kick punch for punch with him. Because his training is clearly where he's masterful. So I would have to work my way around it and use the skills that I find to be my skill strengths, which happens not to be his, and also a need to the common peroneal in the side of his leg to bring him down would be something that he wouldn't expect, because it's not what he would train to do.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Wow. Well said.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew.
Andrew Adams:
For me, we have Jean mentioned one of the things I did which it it's hard not to mention this every time we do a movie because every movie we have done whether it's perfect weapon, Roadhouse, and then above the law, the people we're talking about don't really have a ground game in the movie, then the actors may absolutely have that, but we're not talking about that we're talking about the character. And until we do a movie with some serious grappling, everyone's strategy could easily be just get in there and take them down because they're probably not used to that. Now the question is, how we do that, you know, Jean's idea of catching something to sweep them also to 33:48, would absolutely be a good one. For me, I'm going to be looking for his jump, spin kick, and I'm going to stop it. I'm going to, as soon as I see it coming in. I'm, I'm rushing right in. Because if I can catch him mid kick, I'm behind him. And Jean already mentioned, he doesn't have a whole lot our neck strength by the looks of it. So if I'm behind them, I can easily go in for a rear naked choke.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There you go. That's a very good strategy. I if I had better skills with my throws, I would be looking for those techniques hanging out, especially the punch, but I don't so I can't I can't play that way. I think I'm looking at leg kicks. And I'm looking to be as nice to him as possible. Because I feel like if I can keep him from getting emotionally involved, he doesn't tap into that top what 30, 40% of his capacity, you know, so I'd hit him and then I'd apologize. You know, I'm so sorry. I really like your hair. I hope you end up with Miley greatly just really like just be super nice to him while I'm kicking him in the leg and hope that he's just like, Oh, it's fine. You know, and then eventually when is one of his legs doesn't work, you know, then kind of go into the kill, which could be just about anything at that point.
Jean Kanokogi:
You know, that's a great strategy, you know, mental ability in martial arts and mental toughness and the mental game is so important, not just the physical game, but I'm going to bounce back to what Andrew said, Andrew, I just have to tell you if you go in behind him for a rear naked choke, just hope that he's not drinking whatever he was drinking, because then he's going to end up dancing with you.
Andrew Adams:
Oh, again no. Again, if it's dancing.
Jean Kanokogi:
And what Andrew said, you know, it is a mind game because he did not activate his anger until he found out what happened to Miley. So the, that's the worst thing a fighter can do is fight with emotion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Jean Kanokogi:
Before you go in there, you have to use your skill set, and even decisions, you cannot make good decisions when you're chock full of emotion.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. And Miley knew that. She didn't want him to know she wanted him to be level headed. But let's face it, if he hadn't gotten angry.
Andrew Adams:
He would have lost.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He would have got his butt kicked. I mean, he was getting his butt kicked.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
That's true. That's true. And you know, as from a female perspective, bouncing to Miley. If she had an uncle with that crazy skill set, why did she not get trained? You know, maybe this was a little bit way before the thought of Milan and of course, Rusty Kanokogi, but she, you know, here I am, I'm sitting here saying, Why is she going to pull out some mad skill set? You know, is that going to happen if I had an uncle with, you know, crazy Miyagi skills like that? I mean, actually, I haven't, I haven't dad, with those skills. And it's amazing what my dad who is very gentle, and I do go to the grocery store for him. And, you know, as long as this guy has food, he's happy and he has trained me in so many disciplines with such an even head and even temperament. But then there's that snap, that power, and it just bewilders me why Miley didn't train with her uncle?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And what would have happened? Would Jen have even really cared if they hadn't stabbed his dog?
Jean Kanokogi:
Yeah, that's true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I mean, really, that seemed to bother him. Everything else was like, you know, I'll throw coconuts at you. That's cool.
Jean Kanokogi:
That's true. Well, nobody likes a herd animal. And.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, no, I had I actually had a hard time with that.
Andrew Adams:
My wife did. My wife did as well.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
So, yeah, me too. Whoever could do that to an animal just they need to get slapped across the face a few times with bandanas foot?
Jeremy Lesniak:
While holding a knife.
Jean Kanokogi:
While holding a knife. Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If that somehow possible. So is there anything else that we need to unpack with this? I mean, these are pretty simple strategies. But then again, he was a pretty simple fighter.
Jean Kanokogi:
Very.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, uhm.
Jean Kanokogi:
Oh, go ahead, Andrew.
Andrew Adams:
No, no Jean, please go ahead.
Jean Kanokogi:
Very simple fighter but I like how he trained and it fell in line with kind of that I think about you know, Rocky in the eye of the tiger, I think of when Miyagi was training Daniel son. And every it seems like all of this training, you know, the intense training the kicking, kicking of the tree, to break the tree. I mean, the above and beyond, you know, Rocky running in Siberia, in the snow. I think all that training that was kind of where the movie really just started pulling you in to see how hungry he was for the win. How hungry he was for the win. The problem is, it was for a vendetta and again, based on emotion, but we all saw how emotion driven Van Damme is in this movie or his character is so going to fight somebody for revenge. That's not a great because it's so emotionally tied. But the training showed his investment. So it kind of flipped flopped a little bit like oh, dismiss it because it's emotion but the willingness to go through whatever the uncle put him through to do that training.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, I think the training montage is such a classic, iconic feature of so many great martial art movies. You know, Rocky, you mentioned, you know, The Karate Kid best of the best. They all had great training montage is you know, and so that's what makes them all every single one of them great movies, you know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I think the montage is the most relatable part honestly.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Think about that you know, I'm not going to fight Tong Po or anybody like him. I'm not going to be at the all Valley karate championships. But when you see those training montage is I've done those things. Oh, I know that kata, you know, stuff like that. I think that for a lot of us, that's, that's the resonant part.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's the part where we see ourselves in the field.
Andrew Adams:
And there were two specific training things that I wanted to point out, which I thought was interesting. One is putting pads on the sticks and using them, you know, 32 years later, my dojo did the exact same thing, because we couldn't be next to each other because of COVID.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Andrew Adams:
Like, I saw that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Thought the same thing.
Andrew Adams:
And was like, Oh, my gosh, that's like, we did that exact same thing last year, which I thought was interesting. And the other part that I thought was really interesting, and, you know, maybe a little teaser of something to come in a future episode. But that he brought him to a bar, and essentially taught him how to fight confused and impaired.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
That's an, that's something that we don't often talk about.
Jean Kanokogi:
When I was training in our dojo, my father found it important to blindfold me. And I wasn't impaired. But I also was very out of sorts, because I didn't have my sight. And I was blindfolded. And I had to participate in randori. And a couple of times, I've tripped over my own foot walked into the wall, I was very entertaining. But I also learned how to move. Both of my parents’ senses were blind. So yeah, from Japan, both of them. And it was so important for them to teach me how to be able to move without the use of my sight. So and then sometimes my dad would actually cover my ears as well with the blindfold. So to deprive me of those two sensory senses, really taught me how to move. So I liked the way you said that, Andrew, I mean, I would have preferred my folks getting me drunk in the Dojo and then having me tried to dance and move around the blindfolding part. So I do really appreciate and identify with that. And I think a lot of athletes train in some level of sensory deprivation. Some people train with oxygen deprivation. You know, so I do that transcends over the years through the years. That training.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
Was fantastic. How it emerged. And I could also tell you, I mean, from movies, and you know, we talked about how movies influence the viewers, my parents watched too many movies, in my opinion, because at one point, I think in Rocky, my mother had me pulling her on a bicycle. It was uncomfortable for both, I wouldn't say it hurt. But it was rather uncomfortable for both, I still have some antiquated thing that my dad made me with weights and a bar to strengthen my hands and my forearms. And I still train with it, you know, 30, 40 years later. So where he got that from may have been in like, Zatoichi, the blind swordsman from Japan. So who knows, but the training?
Jeremy Lesniak:
That's cool.
Jean Kanokogi:
The training always gives you that inspiration to want to.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Jean Kanokogi:
Get up and fight get up and work out and get up and do something even with the 90s music behind it.
Andrew Adams:
Yep, the.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Or maybe sometimes because of the 90s is.
Andrew Adams:
The last thing I'll say is my wife enjoys watching these movies with me because, you know, she, she's not a I don't think she would consider herself a martial artist, but she goes to a cardio kick boxing class for an hour and has for a number of years. And so she's enjoying this whole process of me sitting down and taking notes and, and her she always has an idea of what she would do. And because her kickboxing class, they're just heavy bag standing up for the room, she would fight him, but only if he agrees to stand up straight, like a heavy bag and just not move. That's how she would fight him.
Jean Kanokogi:
And look at the audience.
Andrew Adams:
And just look at the audience. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. Good stuff. I think that takes us through.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. And if so, Van Damme wants to come on.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, if he would like to come on the show as a rebuttal. You know, Jean, I don't know if you would come back.
Jean Kanokogi:
I would only if he wore his singlet.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We'll see. We'll see what we can do. Maybe we can work that out. Hopefully, it would be a new one. I think that one is probably well, let's just say it's probably discolored.
Jean Kanokogi:
Its aged, aged out.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Over time. So well, thanks for being here. Thanks for doing this.
Jean Kanokogi:
Thank you guys. This was a ton of fun. And I hope to see you again real soon.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Absolutely.
Jean Kanokogi:
Take care.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Andrew. Thanks.
Jean Kanokogi:
Bye.