Episode 781 - Martial Arts Friendships
In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew along with Craig Wharem and Abbey Hoye, talk about why Martial Arts Friendships are different.
Martial Arts Friendships - Episode 781
In Martial Arts, we make friends as we take our journey. Are martial arts friends different from those we make outside the dojo? In this episode, Jeremy and Andrew along with Craig Wharem and Abbey Hoye talk about why Martial Arts Friendships are different.
After listening to the episode it would be exciting for us to know your thoughts about it.
Show Transcript
You can read the transcript below.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Whistle Kick Martial Arts Radio. Today we're talking about friendships in the martial arts, and I'm joined by three friends. If you're listening to this one, you don't know who they are yet. If you're watching, you might recognize some of these people. In fact, I'm gonna guess that they least recognize you.
Andrew Adams:
Hopefully, they recognize me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe It's their first episode though, they may not recognize you.
Andrew Adams:
In which case, welcome!
Jeremy Lesniak:
Welcome. What do we do? We connect, educate, and entertain. Why do we do what we do? Because we love traditional martial arts. We love you the traditional martial artists of the world. Go to whistlekick.com, check out all the things that we've got going on there. Buy something with the code podcast15. Join the Patreon. Check out the other projects that we're working on. There's ton of stuff rolling out all the time. How do I know? Cause I don't sleep very much and I'm putting all that time into things for folks like us or like you. Now today, friendships.
Andrew Adams:
You call me your friend. That's nice.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You are my friend.
Andrew Adams:
I know.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Which is lucky cause we spend a lot of time together.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah, it's very good.
Jeremy Lesniak:
When we think about friendships in the martial arts, let's start here. Are martial arts friendships the same as non-martial arts friendships?
Craig Wharem:
No.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Why?
Andrew Adams:
Craig says no.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah. How you doing? So, I think simply because there's a different social dynamic where you meet someone and from that, just the way that friendship grows is a little bit different. Like when you meet in high school, right? A pretty relatable thing. You might have a friend who plays a lot of sports or a friend who does a lot of music, but you're not necessarily on the same social dynamic as when you both bow onto a mat or bow into a room, you're both there for a common purpose. So you already start from a place of understanding.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Mm-hmm. Interesting.
Andrew Adams:
I think when you meet somebody new, I think everybody, you start at the same place. Regardless of whether I met them in church or whether I met them on the mat, the first time meeting somebody, everybody is here. But I think inherently, people you train with, you form a different type of friendship with because you spend more time with them. Like people listening or watching, think of your friends that you have in your life and there are probably some that you see more often and you hang out with more often. And there are some that you see once a week maybe at church. But even those you see at church, you maybe see once a week, the type of interactions you have with them is different from, even if you go to a martial arts school once a week. Your interaction with these people that you're getting to know and become friends with is different. Abbey, would you agree?
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah, I would. I mean...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Abbey isn't super comfortable talking. We've kind of shanghaied her, so that's why she's laughing.
Abbey Hoye:
Sorry. No, I totally agree that it's definitely different. You end up in a lot of different interpersonal positions that maybe you wouldn't normally meet someone on the street and jump down on the ground with.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Probably not.
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah. So you end up with a lot more easily digestible scenarios that kind of start to break down those barriers that we put up when we socialize.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Totally. For me, when I think about this, the word that comes to mind is trust. Because if I think about the people that I've trained with, even for just a few months, I trust that they're not trying to hurt me. I trust that they are training in the same place for maybe not the exact same reasons, but some of the same reasons we have. You all talked about the commonality, but it becomes a lot easier to be friends with someone when you trust that they're not gonna kick you in the face, right? Or as an example from today, if they do kick you in the face because you've got some time and because you've got some trust in, it becomes not you kicked me in the face, it becomes, hey, that was a good shot.
Andrew Adams:
Good shot. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm not dying, so I can respect that as what it is because I know the intent.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And I think that that dynamic to me is the part that becomes really uncommon outside of athletic pursuits, sports teams, anything like that. When I think about my friends, it takes a non-martial arts terms. It takes a lot longer to build trust. So whether we think of it as like, I don't know, some kind of Stockholm Syndrome-esque, you know, psychology, that's not the right word, but I think you all know where I'm going, that we're suffering through our training. We're building that bond and we can lean on it and say, I've been through this, you've been through this, I trust that you can do this. And it reminds me of some of the dynamic I've heard veterans talk about with the folks they've circled.
Andrew Adams:
And what I find really interesting is you don't actually have to train with these people to gain that. And I'll use today as a perfect example. The young lady that hit me in the face, great kick, didn't see it coming. I was really impressed. I have only met her three times in my entire life. And I've only trained with her once, and then today would've been the second time. That's it. But I consider her a friend, like, because we have bonded even in these few times that we've been together and we've met because we have the commonality of what we do. I mean, Craig is another great example. I've only known Craig for a year.
Craig Wharem:
I've never kicked Andrew in the face.
Andrew Adams:
That's true. You've never used it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But actually, I've got a question on that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because, so this person who actually, she has not been on the show.
Andrew Adams:
Correct. And I haven't said the name.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah, that's okay. And she probably would prefer that we'd not.
Andrew Adams:
Which is why I haven't.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But we should make her come on the show. It is not Abbey.
Abbey Hoye:
It's not me.
Craig Wharem:
I think her and Abby should be on an episode together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yes. But I've got a lot of time in with her. You've got some more time in with other people around her, close to her, does that create an assumption of trust for you?
Andrew Adams:
That's a good point. I hadn't thought of that. You know what? I think so because we're all working together in the same system to learn stuff and so I think there is an inherent commonality in that, but Craig and I don't have that. But I still feel like Craig is a very good friend even though we've known each other in very little and we've done very little training together.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Maybe the example of Craig isn't a counter-example. Craig and I have a lot of time in. You and I have a lot of time in.
Andrew Adams:
But not a lot of training time.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, not a lot of training time, but we built the relationship, right? I think we've established that time in the trenches, that trust that comes from the physical training can speed up the process of developing a friendship. But we're talking about kind of like you're friend of my friend.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So now we're friends.
Andrew Adams:
Kind of the transited property.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah. Good math nerd stuff going on right there. Does that make you smile?
Abbey Hoye:
That's true. It does.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Abbey Hoye:
And I mean, to be honest, both of you guys, I didn't know. And Andrew was like, hey, come do this thing with these people and I was like, okay, let's do it. Because there is that inherent trust. It's like, I trust Andrew, I know Andrew's trying to keep me safe and do the best thing for my training, and therefore that means you guys must be too.
Jeremy Lesniak: And I think that safety component is a big piece that, you know when I think about the people that if I'm assuming trust, if I'm assuming friend, I'm assuming trust acting friendship. Even if I'm not friends with them yet. I may be acting as if they're my friend. Oh, I just met you. I'm gonna give you the hug that I wouldn't necessarily give a stranger, right? But we are, but I'm still gonna give you that hug. I kind of lost my train of thought. Somebody else goes.
Craig Wharem:
Well, so I actually just experienced this last night.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hopefully not that.
Craig Wharem:
No, no.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What was I talking about?
Craig Wharem:
I've got the train of thought. Well, no fun fact, I knew about this topic about 13 hours ago.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Craig Wharem:
I just found out about this so it was cool.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't think I knew about it much sooner than that.
Andrew Adams:
No, it was right around the same time.
Craig Wharem:
It was pretty cool how it kind of made this happen. So I was with some of my greatest friends in the martial arts last night, and they all run martial arts schools and we said, let's get together for the end of the year. Celebrate a great year. And I brought one of my guys who teaches here with me, Noah. And it dawned on me in that time...
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's an inside joke, I apologize, I can't share it.
Craig Wharem:
It dawned on me in that time that he was there and completely comfortable in that social dynamic because he trusted that I would put him in a safe place.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Craig Wharem:
And thinking on it, two of the guys who were there trained with my instructor, my original instructor, like they're a generation ahead of me in the organizations that we run in but they treated me like a peer and a friend. And it was because again, like I've trained with them a little bit, you know, but not in any sense of, you know, every week. And there was still that kind of camaraderie and everyone had their significant others there, and there was, everyone was hugging and it was a potluck, you know, it was that sort of thing where everyone just instantly felt warm and comfortable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's kind of a flip to this too, I think maybe, I'm curious what you got. I find that when I assume trust, when I give someone, it's not benefit of the doubt, it's just kind of I'm shoehorning them into a friendship role even if they don't have the time and the energy to gain them that standing. If they violate the boundaries that I have around friendship, I find it more impactful. When a martial arts friend hurts me, it hurts more. And we've had, you and I, I mean, there are a lot of things that we talk about that don't go out on the show, but there was something that you and I talked about in prep for free training day there. I think you know where I'm going. And because I think the world of this person, that was really hard for me.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah, I would agree. It's tougher and I think because societally? Is that a word?
Craig Wharem:
Societal.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Societally? Yeah.
Abbey Hoye:
It is now.
Andrew Adams:
Okay, it is now. Abby said so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
She's a teacher.
Andrew Adams:
She's a teacher, so.
Jeremy Lesniak:
She gets some makeup words.
Andrew Adams:
We talk about how martial artists gain you all of these things and you know, they're good people and upstanding and or they should be, right, all these other things. And when they do you wrong, it hurts. I think partly because we're all supposed to be good people. Like, we're not supposed to do this. Like, I could see that being one of the reasons.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Abbey Hoye:
I think another one ultimately might be that we all always talk about our martial arts family. Honestly, I don't think I ever talk about people as martial arts friends. It's always our martial arts family. You know, you go to your gym and you have your dojo family.
Jeremy Lesniak:
What's the difference to you, would you use those words interchangeably or do they mean different things in that context for you?
Abbey Hoye:
At least to me, they definitely mean different things you know. There's a lot of things that I share with my family that I might not share with my friends.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hmm. And maybe vice versa.
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Does that dynamic of friend versus family, does that mean different things to you, Craig?
Craig Wharem:
I don't think it means that much difference to me. I often, now I'm thinking about it, I usually say family and not friends. But if I'm describing people outside of, like if I, you know, when Jeremy comes and hangs out with my friends that aren't martial arts and say, hey, my friend Jeremy's coming, we work together on this stuff.
Andrew Adams:
He's my martial arts friend.
Craig Wharem:
Right. Yeah. We're friends through the martial arts. Realistically, most of my friends, even if they don't train anymore, have trained at one point. So they all kind of get it and right away they kind of lock-in and go, okay, they're martial artists. I trust them you know, in that way. But that's interesting. I never really thought about the difference.
Andrew Adams:
And for me, I have a foot in many different circles.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Andrew Adams:
I've got the music pipe band circle, and I've got martial arts circle, and for years and years and years I did live-action role-playing and I have a large group of friends from that and they're definitely different, but I've never used necessarily the word family in that context of martial arts. But I get what you're saying because I do feel like my martial arts friends are a little different from my non-martial arts friends. And there's a lot of overlap, I mean, obviously, there's definitely some overlaps from them, but it is definitely different with the martial arts friends being somewhat more family oriented. I get that.
Abbey Hoye:
You call me your karate wife.
Andrew Adams:
That is true. You are my martial arts wife. Not just karate, you're my martial arts wife. That's true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I do see those terms a little differently, but I'm gonna have to chew on that cause it's not something I've considered before. You know, you're talking about in certain contexts you might refer to, I think we would probably both do this. In certain contexts, I would refer to you as friend and other times I would refer to you as family.
Craig Wharem:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And why is that? Right? So I wanna chew on that. That's an interesting point.
Andrew Adams:
Changing gears just a little bit, let's talk about how these friendships can help us in our training. Like, I have a great example, and I talked about this during my interview episode, episode 472, which you obviously haven't listened.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Submitting now!
Andrew Adams:
I only know that now cause somebody asked me recently like you were on, I wanna listen to your episode and I had to look it up.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm so lucky mine's easy to remember. 100.
Andrew Adams:
100. I had thought of saying that.
Craig Wharem:
Everyone paused for a second.
Andrew Adams:
It's like, cause it wasn't one.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I don't expect you to remember.
Andrew Adams:
I remember.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You don't have to remember. Abbey, what number is yours?
Abbey Hoye:
Zero.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, not yet.
Andrew Adams:
So, I started training as a kid, took many years off, and started training again as an adult with a friend of mine who had trained at another school. But he also stopped training for many years. And so we together would drive in the car, go to this new school and it was a Shotokan school, and we would train together and then we would get in the car and we would drive home. And we would have this hour-long chat in the car every single week to talk about what we worked on. And there were things that he picked up really quickly that I struggled with and vice versa.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Andrew Adams:
But we had that time to talk and to some degree it was a bit of a workout buddy, right? Somebody that hold you accountable like, I don't really wanna go to class tonight, but he's on his way over, you know?
Jeremy Lesniak:
There's an accountability there.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. And I think in some ways that is one of the ways that friends can help, but just being able to bounce ideas and talk about class, after it happened. And it doesn't even have to be someone that was in that class. I mean, how many times have I come to you after class that you weren't even in? Like, oh, we worked on this thing last night, and whatever you know? But you can relate because you're a part of that community.
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah. Absolutely.
Craig Wharem:
Well, and that's relatable to me too. When I was promoted last, I was struggling with it because it brought me above in the rankings my original instructor. And I like really struggled emotionally with it like it was, I didn't want it. Like, I just, I didn't feel like it was right for me. So I called Jeremy and he had to talk to me for like an hour, you know. And right when he gets on the call, he goes, ok, am I your business consultant, your mentor, or your friend? And I said I need my friend. And he goes, okay, hold on. Hey buddy! What's up? Yeah, change hats. Yeah, yeah. Hey buddy, what's up? And then we talked but it was that idea that I needed somebody to talk it out with me that wasn't somebody who teaches me actively who isn't that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Craig Wharem:
Who has probably been in similar experiences, was my feeling when I called him. So, and then afterwards I kind of came to terms with it, you know. But it was that need of someone cause I didn't know who else to talk to, you know. So that was kind of what got me over that hurdle.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. And if we hadn't had the time in, if you didn't know me, if I didn't know you, that conversation wouldn't have gone the way it did, it probably wouldn't have happened, but even if it had happened, I would've been wearing one of those other two hats.
Craig Wharem:
Right.
Andrew Adams:
It would've been a different conversation.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. Yeah. And it might not have been the conversation you needed.
Andrew Adams:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. One of the things that you know, again, I take it back to trust, and so we're talking about, you know, what are the upsides? What are the pros of a friendship in the martial arts and what you can get out of it? I mean, you alluded to one. You were in a class, you were in a class. What did we do? Can we get together? Can we work on it, right? You're probably not gonna call the person you know the least in class. You're probably not gonna call the instructor. You're probably gonna call the person you know the best, you're best friend in the class, and say, can you help me with this? Can we work on that? When I was training for my Taekwondo black belt, you know, my best friend in the class was the one that was working with me weekends, like six months in advance. Like, let's get you ready. Let's make sure you actually know these forms, right? And in a more narrow way, we talked about trust, you know, kick to the face. Think about the dynamic of what we do and how nerve-wracking it can be, right? Like, you know, we had five people training today in not an intense environment, but working on some material that can be really challenging, is newer for the two of you.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And what if you two knew each other, the other three training with you were strangers? That would've been a lot more difficult you know. Maybe not impossible, maybe not nerve-wracking, but because that trust is there it's just like we're all here to help each other. We're all here to learn together and we can skip that nervous part.
Andrew Adams:
Well, and I think today is a little unique as well because those other three people there, the other three people training, and then the person that was helping us, right? You four were ostensibly there to physically help the two of us. You know, we are going through this process of learning this new material and you and the others know the material really well. And so we said, hey, would you help us work on this stuff? And so, you know, obviously, there was a more of a trust there that we said physically specifically, come help us but yeah, you're right, that plays a role, I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. You've spent a bunch of time training with friends and friends who started training and everything.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Where do you see those upsides? Because you know, let me say one more thing. You have tighter friendships with your students than any other instructor I know. So I'm sure you've navigated this and spent some time thinking about it.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah. I've been very fortunate, right? I was thinking about outside of kicks in the face, like benefits of martial arts, right? Which I got kicked in the face story.
Andrew Adams:
That's not a benefit.
Craig Wharem:
Sometimes it can be, but like I've...
Jeremy Lesniak:
My teeth are straight now cause I got kicked in the face 20 years ago. Took a while.
Craig Wharem:
I have a, no, no. I almost said I have a scar right here from being kicked in the face. You took me off track. So no, but I was fortunate in that when I started. I started teaching at a very young age, right. I was 13 when I started assisting, I was in high school teaching high schoolers.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right.
Craig Wharem:
And so it was right away that delineation of Craig's in the dojo. He's teaching us right now. We need to be respectful of him as a teacher and Craig's doing the play at the high school, right? Like it was easy to kind of navigate that from the offset cause I didn't know any different. But the friendships I've made over the years with other teaching staff, like, you know, Mark Miller, who he's been on the show before he's passed guest. At one point, I needed to find a new apartment to live and he goes, oh, just come stay at mine. And like he had an apartment that he would rent out to people and he was like, yeah, just come stay here you know. Or I needed a new car, somebody was getting rid of a car. It passed along you know. One of my best friends, we talked, Noah, he works for me. He trains with me. He is a teaching or he's a training partner of mine and he's a student of mine. Meaning he goes with me...
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a lot of different distinct relationships.
Craig Wharem:
And he and I have found a way to communicate and navigate in that way where if we're in the four walls of the school, it's, you know, teaching hats on, business hats on, you gotta leave it. And if you need to communicate how you're feeling and you're feeling too emotional about it, you just say, listen, I'm feeling really emotional. I need to communicate later. And that's how we've been able to kind of curve the butting heads that could happen, right? And that's because of John, my original instructor, that's how he was. Like you knew right in that moment what he was thinking. Whether you were gonna be comfortable hearing it or not, you heard it because otherwise, it builds up and then it becomes really bad.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sure.
Craig Wharem:
And always acknowledging like this could become bad if we don't maintain it and take care of it.
Jeremy Lesniak: So, I wanna flip into the other side, but I wanna underscore what you're saying. If I am hearing you correctly, you're saying that one of the critical elements is clear and direct communication.
Craig Wharem:
Absolutely.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And that if you can, if everyone understands what the parameters are, you know, when we're in the four walls, I am your instructor. When we're out there, it's different, right? Whether or not it's, and let's face it, if you're asking your students to call you by your title, you're pro outside, you're probably not friends with them. Let's just, just gonna, you know. No, I'm not even, no. If you're telling your students, you have to call me Sensei so-and-so when you're outside the school, you're not friends with them. Because friendship is a pure relationship.
Craig Wharem:
I agree.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And forcing a title onto someone is not a pure relationship. That is a superior-subordinate relationship.
Craig Wharem:
It's actually an interesting fact. In my adult program at the karate school, I don't ask them to call me anything. Like, there's no type, like the kids call me Mr. W, right? We use Mr. And Miss, we don't use the normal titles. But whenever I introduce myself to an adult training student, I say, hey, I'm Craig. Have you trained before? Okay. Come on out. And inherently they fall into calling me Mr. W because...
Andrew Adams:
Everyone else does.
Craig Wharem:
It happens. A lot of parents call me that because their kids did and stuff, but I never ask or demand it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. So it's coming from a respectful place and you're giving them the option.
Andrew Adams:
And that's different for sure.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah, and I meet them as a peer and like right on their first day. Like I go, hey I'm Craig. The only difference between me and you is I've done this a little bit longer so come on in and let's train. And that helps make that friendship happen.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And you and I have fallen into that. We've never even talked about it, but the times that we've talked together, you know, your Sensei Andrew, I'm Sensei Jeremy, like that's how we've referred to each other.
Andrew Adams:
Yep.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Never once before now talked about it.
Andrew Adams:
Nope.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It happened organically cause for similar reasons, right, we just kind of get it, that that's where that ends up. So what about the flip side? What about the challenges? You know, we talked a little bit when someone violates your boundaries, it can hurt more because you give them more, right? You give them more of that trust. But within the context of let's say, day-to-day training and someone not just waking up one day and being a complete jerk, there are things that I could... No, you're not.
Craig Wharem:
No, no, no, no. I have some.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Oh, I heard something. I thought you were saying I'm a complete jerk. Craig, go ahead.
Craig Wharem:
The biggest challenge I have is like right now we're recording this the week between Christmas and New Year's. My karate school's been closed. I have not done any training and I'm absolutely fine with that. Like, I'm okay shutting that completely off and not talking about martial art thought like I'm okay completely. A lot of my friends who are in the martial, that's all they wanna talk to me about. And I'm like completely ok not training for a week like I can let it go.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They're so immersed in it versus their lighter level of immersion.
Craig Wharem:
Right.
Jeremy Lesniak:
That you're saturated. You need to detox in a sense.
Andrew Adams:
And you're okay with that.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But they may not understand it because, you know, I think a lot of us have heard that kind of adage to be careful of making your hobby, your job. Turning something fun into a job. It can change your dynamic with it.
Andrew Adams:
I have a couple as well and you know, one of them is, so there's two sides of it. There's the instructor-student friendship and there can be issues there. But there's also the student-student friendship, right? Which can be very different. You know, an example that I would give is we had a former, and I can say former now cause they're not training anymore, black belt in our school and they tested at the same time as I did. We got our black belts together. And they stopped training for a handful of different reasons. It wasn't one reason. And I was trying to be a good friend and being supportive, like, oh, it'd really be great to have you come back like, you know, this is what we're doing. And they felt pressured and I didn't mean for it to be pressure. And they eventually came right out and said, you know, and actually they didn't tell me, they told my wife Teresa, like, I'm feeling really pressured by Andrew like he's trying to force me to come back.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You're trying to welcome them back.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. I was trying to do the good and I was trying to be a good friend but because I was so exuberant about it, they took it the wrong way. And we talked about this in our first dozen episodes, it came up all the time and it came up today, open clear communication.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. That's why I look for that phrase cause I remember that was yours.
Andrew Adams: Yeah. I'm big into open, clear communication and in this case, I was communicating, but I was not doing it in a way that she was receptive of hearing.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Right. And she wasn't open and clear with you.
Andrew Adams:
Correct.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because if she had been, she'd said, hey, not right now. Leave me be on this one. You would've said okay.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
How about you?
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah, I think that a lot of the challenges that I tend to have are actually from a female perspective, you know, you can be really open and welcoming to these people cause that's your job as like an upper rank in their school and all that is to welcome them, make them feel happy. I've had a lot of those scenarios turn a little bit different than I was expecting them to because I was open and welcoming and happy.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And sometimes men misread intention.
Abbey Hoye:
Once in a while, yeah. So I've had a couple of those and I think the other challenges are really, when you get injured, you know, there's a little piece of you that's like, ah, that is so frustrating. Why couldn't we have just stopped? And that kind of stuff and I find that communication very difficult.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I've got two things that I'm thinking of. The first one is if your friendships in the martial arts constitute the majority of your social circle, and then for some reason, you no longer have access to that social circle by your own choice or I'm thinking of an example, and I suspect there are a few people out there who may be watching or listening that know this example, I'm not giving any more details where that social circle was taken away from them. And I watched what it did to someone to suddenly have their entire non-working life taken. And what it did to them, it was gut-wrenching. But a scenario that I think is a little less intense and far more common is what about when you're training with someone who is prioritizing the friendship over the training? You're working out side by side with someone. You're focused on this and they're like, hey, hey.
Andrew Adams:
Do you watch that movie?
Jeremy Lesniak:
Hey, what are you doing after class? Hey, we're gonna partner up. I wanna work with you. Hey, hey, now that doesn't happen as much with adults. It doesn't happen as much with higher ranks, but it still happens.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, we do memes once in a while. There's a Mr. Bean meme that we recycle from time to time, and it's, you know, that look you give your favorite training partner when the instructor says grab a partner, you know?
Craig Wharem:
We gave that look at the team training.
Andrew Adams:
We did. We did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah. And it's natural, it happened. You have people that you wanna work with, and the team training is a great example where there were a couple moments and it was a small group. And just for folks, for your own context, this was a group before free training day of core whistlekick team members that I ran some training with. It could have gone sideways, right? Like I know your personalities and I'm sure you guys know too.
Craig Wharem:
But Andrew and I behaved ourselves.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We were right. We were up against that line. It could have crossed over and it wouldn't have taken much from either of you to push it over that line, right? And you know, obviously kudos to both of you for knowing where the line is and that's because we are friends and we've got time in. But not everyone knows where those lines are.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know, if we think about what happens when there's a visiting instructor and, you know, the school's built a culture of, you know, have fun and call instructors by first names were, you know, that can become chaotic. There are so many places where that could happen and I think that's why most adults fall into training first, friendship second. Would you agree? I think that's where it ends up?
Andrew Adams:
I would.
Craig Wharem:
In my experience, it's the opposite.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Really?
Craig Wharem:
Yeah. So, there are people who will come into my adult classes who are just there for the social. They just want to make friends, to have an outlet with other like-minded adults. And they don't even care what system they're learning. Like they just want to be around people. They wanna have fun. And when we have you come in Jeremy, I call you Sensei Jeremy. I've had people come in who have titles of grandmaster or this, that, or the other thing, and they're very formal. Well, it's my job as the instructor to prep my students. Say, look, we're always fun, but I also am very particular in whom I allow into the culture.
Andrew Adams:
Fair.
Craig Wharem:
Because I have friends who I think are excellent teachers who wouldn't gel with the culture of the school. And it wouldn't put my students in the best place or the instructor in the best place. So I have to be particular a little bit about how can I best showcase my friend, the instructor who's coming in, and how can I best showcase and make the students feel comfortable too. And what's happened over time is it's come down to the students' trust me. Like if I'll say, hey, Sensei Jeremy's coming down. They'll all call you Sensei Jeremy. They'll pick up on that once then they'll do it. They'll bow however you want. They'll do whatever you want because...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Backflip bows.
Craig Wharem:
They'll do their best. Well, the first time you came down to the school, you taught a little basic capoeira. They've never done that before in their life and they loved every minute of it. They thought it was the coolest thing ever.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It was the day we met.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
The start of our friendship.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah, coincidentally. Ok, I can't be that picky, I never really met you before.
Andrew Adams:
And I haven't taught yet down here so...
Craig Wharem:
You're on my calendar. So is Abbey.
Jeremy Lesniak:
You should have Abbey teach before Andrew.
Craig Wharem:
I think, no. Like right before, like an hour before.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We'll invite all the people you know.
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
If you can't tell we're razzing Abbey.
Craig Wharem:
Because we're friends.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Because we're friends.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And she's a little bit uncomfortable, but we trust her to do this. And there's a bit of a martial arts element there, isn't there? You trust us that we're not gonna take you someplace unsafe.
Andrew Adams:
Yep. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And we are challenging you, pushing you a little bit to hopefully get a little bit better at something, right? Like there's a martial arts dynamic.
Andrew Adams:
And it's payback for letting you, not letting you, asking you to train with me in the Superfoot system.
Abbey Hoye:
That's true.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I cut you off.
Craig Wharem:
I forgot where I was going. Oh, the capoeira. They just had so much fun with it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Craig Wharem:
So it was neat. The reason why I chose to have you come down is cause I had heard the show. And I was like, ok, this guy, like, we line up a lot. Like I'll reach out to him. Long shot. He's got a podcast, he's not gonna get back to me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
He's got a podcast. He's such a big deal. This was like, so 2016, so this is like episode 100, 120, 80.
Craig Wharem:
We were friends long before that. I think.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I came down April of 2016.
Craig Wharem:
So we're coming up on our friendaversary.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Friendaversary! 7 years.
Craig Wharem:
Oh, it's the amber year, isn't it?
Jeremy Lesniak:
You know why I remember it? Cause it was a chaotic week including my original Superfoot test. And the original whistle league tournament.
Andrew Adams:
Oh, got it.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah, and we tied it into you coming down to train anyway. Yeah. Oh, I remember cause you were like, yeah, I'm just you know, is there a place where I could crash this, that, and the other thing? I was like, yeah, you take me out to dinner. Yeah, no problem. And you did none of those things. You taught and then left.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Didn't we go eat?
Craig Wharem:
I don't remember that.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm pretty sure we went to eat.
Craig Wharem:
Okay. Well, I don't remember.
Jeremy Lesniak:
I'm pretty sure we went to eat.
Craig Wharem:
But I've been kicked in the face by friends.
Andrew Adams:
So I'm gonna pull right it back in.
Craig Wharem:
That never happened.
Jeremy Lesniak:
No, it doesn't. He's learning from me.
Andrew Adams:
I know. I learned by watching you.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Learned it by watching you.
Andrew Adams:
One of the other nice things about the friendship, and I kind of hinted at it just a second ago, you know, you came to me and said, I think you should consider starting to train in the Superfoot system. And I was like, mm, I don't know. Maybe. And then at all in weekend, Dennis was like, yeah, you need to do this. And I was like, oh, I don't know. And then he came up to work with us and you know, I realized, ok, you know what? This would be good. It would be good for me. It would be fun. It's different but I didn't wanna do it alone. I really didn't. And I could have absolutely, I] could have done all by it myself. And I was like, I don't wanna do this alone. How can I? Abbey! You wanna come do something with me? And she was like, oh, what is it? And so, you know, invited her to, I mean, I say invite like it's like me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Would you like to...
Andrew Adams:
No, but it was more like, it was in my head, it was more like, will you please do this thing with me cause I don't wanna do it alone. And she's so graciously said yeah.
Abbey Hoye:
Well, cause I can't say no to martial arts.
Craig Wharem:
It's really hard to say no to Andrew.
Abbey Hoye:
And also really hard to say no to Andrew.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
She's not been on the show until today, so clearly, it's not that hard.
Craig Wharem:
I go on the show anytime you ask.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Sometimes when we don't.
Craig Wharem:
Sometimes I just show up. Pop on the Zoom. You guys recorded today?
Jeremy Lesniak:
This is why we have a waiting room.
Craig Wharem:
Can we talk about Patrick's lazy?
Andrew Adams:
Oh my goodness. But it allowed me to have somebody to do this with.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
You know, who is a friend who understands what I'm doing and we could do it together. I love that.
Abbey Hoye:
Me too.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Let's wrap up.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
We've gone about the length of time that I wanted to, and we hit the points that I wanted to hit. So do you have any thoughts beyond, I'm gonna go first and just say don't be afraid of friendships in the martial arts, you know? It's obviously a different dynamic if it is your school if you are the head instructor, there are some cautionary things that go there like, you know, don't date your students. Be careful of you know, just because you can handle a relationship where, you know, you go from superior-subordinate to peer doesn't mean the other people always can.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's a lot easier when it's training partners. But just because that can be challenging in any of the contexts doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered and attempted. You know, like anything else, there's a skill there and it can be really rewarding. You have some absolutely wonderful, wonderful friendships that I've watched continue to grow over the years with people that are your students that you figure out how to play that dynamic.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah. And it can be done. There are certain things you have to keep in the back of your mind. You know, if you go out to dinner with them and you're trying to think of a story to tell, and you choose the wrong one, well, you have to see them on Monday and talk about integrity, right? So there is a balance you have to kind of have inherently that you, along the way, the more the friendship grows, the less you have to worry about that.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Craig Wharem:
But at first, there is a way to do it. It can be done and those relationships, it can be incredibly valuable.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. I mean, friendship, should you look for it? Yes.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's worth the effort. Friendships are worth the effort.
Andrew Adams:
Absolutely. And as an instructor, you should strive for it to some degree. And I say this because there are instructors out there that I know that have zero relationships with their students.
Jeremy Lesniak:
They draw a very hard line.
Andrew Adams:
For them, they probably feel that it works, but I would be willing to bet that for the majority of their students, it doesn't work for them.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Things can be a little more gray. It doesn't have to be black, white. It doesn't have to be, you don't acknowledge your students outside of class, or you are their best friend with no boundaries.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah. Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
There are gray areas. When I had my own school, I was somewhere in the gray, you know, like I was friendly. I would be social with them.
Andrew Adams:
Yeah.
Jeremy Lesniak:
But they weren't gonna be my best friends. I wasn't helping them move.
Andrew Adams:
I know instructors whose students don't know their first name. Think about that for a second, they only know them as sensei whatever.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Yeah.
Andrew Adams:
And they don't know their first name.
Jeremy Lesniak:
It's weird.
Andrew Adams:
Anyway.
Abbey Hoye:
Yeah, I think they're absolutely always a fantastic choice. I think just communicate, communicate, communicate.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Open and direct.
Andrew Adams:
Open clear communication. OCC.
Craig Wharem:
Yeah. You know me.
Jeremy Lesniak:
And on that note, we're gonna wind up because this is about to go sideways. Thank you for joining. Thank you for watching. Thank you for listening. I appreciate all of you. If you wanna support us, here're a handful of things. Consulting, whistlekick offers consulting. If you want your school to grow in terms of students or dollars, I've got a pretty good track record and I'm not solo on this. There are people that help me out, right? This guy helps me out. That's number one. Number two, seminars. If you want me to come in and teach a seminar for you at your school and maybe bring some of these yokels with me, I can do that.
Craig Wharem:
Abbey?
Andrew Adams:
He can come in and teach capoeira.
Craig Wharem:
He could and he can bring Abbey.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Nope, nope. No. I'll teach Jenga as a warmup. That's really as far as I'm going teaching it. Sorry, Bruno. What else? Patreon, podcast15 at whistlekick.com, whistlekickmartialartsradio.com. Sign up for the newsletter. If you haven't done it yet, sign up for the 30 day challenge.
Craig Wharem:
I did.
Jeremy Lesniak:
So many things going on and my email address, jeremy@whistlekick.com. Our social media's @whistlekick. Should we try for the first time ever to get four people to do the sign-off?
Andrew Adams:
Let's go for it.
Jeremy Lesniak:
Do you know what it is?
Abbey Hoye:
Nope. I was gonna say...
Jeremy Lesniak:
Follow along. Alright. Until next time. Train hard, smile, and have a great day.